Mike Lee needs to shut up about the Mormon thing, as do the rest of the morons who keep insisting the Mormons are merely another Christian denomination.
The hilarious aspect of this is that removing the Mormons from the list of Christian denominations would have required that the Pentagon provided actual Mormon chaplains for them instead of whatever random Protestant chaplains were available.
I'm not going to list the theological reasons why Mormonism is incompatible with Christianity, but I will note that Joseph Smith was quite clear that Mormonism was intended to replace every existing Christian denomination because it was a new and better revelation than Scripture.
So, let their bosoms burn with anger at this perceived slight, who cares.
FYI, if you are ever in SLC or the surrounding areas, the religious fiction section in the LDS bookstores is huge.
Those who really don't know why Mormons aren't Christians can email me and/or find their answers on my blog:
ReplyDeletehttps://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com
Thanks, there are a multitude of reasons. It wouldn’t be a big deal if they just owned the differences and did their own thing.
DeleteThe question remains, who gets to decide what/ who is and isn't Christian? Who has the authority to make that call and on what basis? I don't think those religionists who cling to the notion of penal substitutionary theory of atonements, or hell, or original sin, or a literal Adam, are at all speaking of the same thing that Jesus Christ spoke of. Do I get to say that you traditionalists are not Christian?
ReplyDeleteSays who? Based on what reasonable or objectively proven Authority ? These are reasonable questions that go unanswered.
The difference then between those of us who affirm and believe in and live into grace and the religious traditionalist is that we're not going to call you not Christian. We are glad to say merely that teaching is not the teaching of Jesus.
On another note on classifying many Latter-day Saints believers in the same camp as the religious traditionalists, I was correctly identifying what would happen when I first heard of this. Since Mormons are usually largely conservative and Republican, I noted that they will complain that they were removed from the Christian list and that Hegseth et al, who almost certainly do not think that Mormons are at all Christian, much like you all, would bow down and make the necessary changes to please the GOP Mormons. I noted correctly that the Mormons were not concerned about religious liberty and others who were actually removed from the Pentagon's list. They only cared about themselves.
Shamefully, conservative hypocrisy was predictable.
For the purposes of this controversy, the DOD gets to decide.
DeleteFor the purposes of the bigger picture YHWH gets to decide.
In reality the Mormons decided when the chose Joseph Smith and Brigham Young over Jesus and Paul.
When we start to claim that YHWH was a human who became a God, that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer, that we can become gods, and the magic underwear is the key to everything, then feel free.
The Church is sitting on amounts of wealth so vast that it is bizarre to see you defending them.
Absolutely zero of the factual/historical claims of the BOM (with it's 3000+ significant changes/edits) have aligned with any known reality.
"Do I get to say that you traditionalists are not Christian?"
You, like the Mormons, can say whatever you like regardless of how false and inaccurate it is.
"Says who? Based on what reasonable or objectively proven Authority ?"
What are you even referring to? Are these simply your usual reflex questions thrown out with no purpose other than to take up space and to give you room to bitch that your questions aren't answered?
Again, for the purposes of this controversy, the DOD is making a determination that for DOD purposes only that Mormons do not fit into the same category as Protestant Christian denominations. This is certainly withing their purview and is not a theological claim. For starters, based on the "authority" of Joseph Smith who was quite clear that Mormonism was intended to replace any and all other Christian denominations and sects because his new revelation superseded all previous revelations. One can compare and contrast the Mormon doctrinal claims as well as their historical claims with scripture and reality as well.
"We are glad to say merely that teaching is not the teaching of Jesus."
If it helps you, the teachings of the Mormon church are not the teachings of Jesus.
"Since Mormons are usually largely conservative and Republican, I noted that they will complain that they were removed from the Christian list and that Hegseth et al, who almost certainly do not think that Mormons are at all Christian, much like you all, would bow down and make the necessary changes to please the GOP Mormons."
What, are you kidding, a political appointee choosing to amend a decision based on political fallout, that's never happened in the 250 years of our constitutional republic. Crazy.
"I noted correctly that the Mormons were not concerned about religious liberty and others who were actually removed from the Pentagon's list. They only cared about themselves."
Again, shocking. A religion based on the notion that we as humans can be gods is self centered, who could have imagined.
Can you imagine the collective outrage and gasp if progressive followers of Jesus and his actual teachings said to modern conservative religionists...
ReplyDelete"It wouldn’t be a big deal if you all just owned the differences and did their own thing. CALL yourselves 'followers of Paul, as we understand Paul...' if you want, but there is so little of Jesus' actual teachings in your human traditions, don't pretend to call yourself 'Christian...'"
Wouldn't some of you just faint from the vapours if someone said something like that to you all?
Delete""It wouldn’t be a big deal if you all just owned the differences and did their own thing. CALL yourselves 'followers of Paul, as we understand Paul...' if you want, but there is so little of Jesus' actual teachings in your human traditions, don't pretend to call yourself 'Christian...'""
Again, you and those like you are free to make whatever nonsensical claims you want to, no one is stopping you at all. Of course, for anyone to take you seriously, you'd need to prove your claims, and that you somehow were the only one following the True "teachings of Jesus".
"Wouldn't some of you just faint from the vapours if someone said something like that to you all?"
No. But as we've seen with the PCUSA and other mainline Protestant denominations, the suggestion that progressives might want to align with a denomination with which they agree instead of taking over one, the fit that y'all throw is significant. Again using the takeover of the PCUSA as an example, the conservative and moderate congregations left the PCUSA (in many cases paid the PCUSA millions in ransom for property owned by the local congregation, and fought multiple lawsuits by the PCUSA) and happily aligned with other bodies. While the PCUSA continues to decline.
It is cute that you think that you have the ability and authority to "excommunicate" those you disagree with from the very Kingdom of YHWh that Jesus spoke of so often.
It is strange that Paul, after his conversion and encounter with Christ, went to Jerusalem to confer with Jesus' disciples (who knew Him and His message better than anyone) to make sure that the Gosple that Paul preached was in complete alignment with what Jesus told His disciples. Shockingly enough, everyone agreed that Paul's Gospel and Jesus' Gospel were the same one.
DeleteNow, 2500 years later, thankfully we have Dan to tell us the Jesus' disciples got it all wrong.
Dan is as ignorant about Mormons as he is about real Christianity. HEY STUPID DAN!! The Mormon god is a man who became a god and all Mormon men have the chance to do the same. The Mormon god had sex with Mary to provide a body for Jesus to inhabit. In Mormonism Jesus and satan are brothers-- and in fact we are all siblings of the man-god and his many spirit wives. I am an ex-Mormon and know one helluva lot more about them than you do!
ReplyDeleteI meant to address this, and forgot, so thank you. This is another instance where Dan spouts off out of ignorance as if he was somehow an expert.
DeleteBut hey, if Dan wants to support one of the richest and most power hungry organizations on the planet, which exerts an insane amount of control over the lives of it's followers, one which was blatantly racist until they realized the BYU needed black football players to win, and that treats women way worse than most pseudo-christian sects, he is free to do so.
Yes, Dan is ignorant about the distinctive beliefs of Mormons as well as how much of a monolith they are.
DeleteOK, here's a question for you to answer.
ReplyDeleteDo the "teachings of Jesus" support the concept of polygamy, polyamory, or non monogamy for believers in general and for leaders in particular?
This is a non negotiable question, which you will answer before any more of your nonsense gets out of moderation.
Dan appearing to defend a religion with which he has virtually zero in common, and would likely oppose if he knew enough, is one of the more bizarre things I've seen this year.
ReplyDeleteThe one thing Dan has in common with Mormons is how far astray from actual Christianity they both are. Imagine him daring to condescend to those with whom he remains incapable of rebutting, refuting or correcting with actual Biblical verses. Maybe Dan's issue here is really with the new list no longer recognizing Unitarian Universalists.
DeleteThere is that.
DeleteAs to your questions about the teachings of Jesus, Jesus had absolutely zero things to say about polygamy or polyamory or non-monogamy. Just literally speaking.
ReplyDeleteIn the context of the time, of a patriarchal society where wives could be just divorced and pushed off into poverty and destitution, Jesus strongly discouraged divorce, I think clearly because of the oppression factor involved. Jesus set up no permanent ruling on marriage though. Literally speaking that's what we find in Jesus on those topics.
Craig, missing the point. ...
"Dan appearing to defend a religion with which he has virtually zero in common, and would likely oppose if he knew enough"
I'm pretty familiar with the teachings of the Latter-day Saints. This is not a defense of their teachings, which I disagree with, of course or at least by and large I disagree with, although I'm sure we might find some common ground. That's the same with you all. That's my point... because I believe Jesus taught a way of grace. It wasn't about having a perfect knowledge or a perfect theology or a perfect belief system; it was/is about grace, kindness, welcome, inclusion.
So I'm not defending the rather nutty and even bad teachings found in Mormon faith traditions any more than I'm defending your all's rather nutty or harmful human traditions. I'm just saying, grace.
I'm not saying Mormons are not Christian and I'm not saying conservative religionists in your traditions are not Christian. I'm looking at specific teachings and saying, THAT'S not something Jesus said and THAT'S not something Jesus said.
See the difference between a grace faith tradition and a religionist rules-based religious system?
"As to your questions about the teachings of Jesus, Jesus had absolutely zero things to say about polygamy or polyamory or non-monogamy. Just literally speaking."
DeleteLet's start with the obvious and note that this isn't really an answer. Then let's move on the the fact that Jesus does speak fairly directly to the nature of the marriage relationship.
"I think clearly because of the oppression factor involved."
As usual, you can think whatever you want. Strangely enough Jesus was pretty clear about His reason why He opposed divorce and "the oppression factor" wasn't what He is recorded as saying.
So, given your vague nonsense about "grace", are you endorsing the notion being debated in the PCUSA that monogamy should not be required for ordained clergy?
I guess that you could put that spin on it if you like, but you certainly appear to be endorsing the suggestion that Mormons are just one more Christian denomination, when their own founder would dispute that nonsense.
"I'm not saying Mormons are not Christian"
Are you saying that they are?
"THAT'S not something Jesus said."
1. This is an excellent example of you applying your personal, subjective rules to Scripture.
2. You have been quite clear that you only consider what Jesus said in certain circumstances as "Jesus teachings", and that the rest of Jesus' recorded words are in another category.
3. This necessarily involves limiting your accepted texts to a percentage of the "red letters", while excluding or re categorizing the rest of Scripture as something other.
"See the difference between a grace faith tradition and a religionist rules-based religious system?"
No, as you haven't actually shown that your caricatures are accurate, nor have you detailed what a "grace filled faith tradition" actually means.
I'm not asking you to do either, as I simply don't care what self referential nonsense you'll invent to support your claim. I'm merely noting that you haven't met any standard of proof of your claim.
Again, answering the
"So I'm not defending the rather nutty and even bad teachings found in Mormon faith traditions"
DeleteAre you suggesting that the "rather nutty" aspects of Mormonism actually can be aligned with even the most generous and grace filled interpretation of Scripture?
Are you suggesting that there is some core of Biblical fidelity within Mormonism and that the "rather nutty" stuff is all just fringe?
Jesus' teaching, or at least Jesus' words...
ReplyDelete"3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
"4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”"
1. "The Creator made them male and female", is this not somehow a "teaching" of Jesus? Was Jesus mistaken?
2. Man...woman... one flesh...YHWH has joined together". Does this not suggest something beyond mere opinion on Jesus' part?
3. Jesus seems pretty adamant that "no one should separate" what YHWH has "joined together". Yet you seen quite accepting of divorce for pretty much any reason, why disagree with Jesus and YHWH?
4. Does YHWH "join together" every single arrangement of people who claim to be married?
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
"8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”"
Where exactly is "oppression factor" mentioned specifically or even alluded to? If divorce was "not this way from the beginning", what magically happened that made it OK at some point? Would you agree with Jesus that someone who divorces their spouse (other than sexual infidelity) and "marries another" does in fact commit adultery? Given that Jesus seems very clear that marriage was created as one man/one woman from the beginning, that the two are "joined together" as "one flesh" by YHWH, and the marrying someone outside of that design is committing adultery, then how does a non monogamous marital arrangement fit with Jesus' teaching?
Dan writes that he is "pretty familiar with the teachings of the Latter-day Saints" yet he thinks he might find some "common ground" with their teachings. Well Dan and the LDS worship a god who isn't the God of the Bible--the God of Jews and Christians. While LDS god is a man living on another planet, Dan's god approves of sodomy and all the LGBTQ perversions. They also worship a Jesus not found in the Bible-- LDS Jesus being a spiritual brother of satan and who paid for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane while the Jesus of Dan's is tolerant of all false teachings and supports same-sex mirage.
ReplyDeleteHe refuses to say Mormons aren't Christian so that says a lot about Dan's "religion." Jesus would definitely say the LDS is of the devil and Paul would say it is our duty to expose them for what they are.
Grace? With individual Mormons you can teach them them the true Gospel and explain why the LDS cult is a fraud, and hope/pray that they will take to heart what they've been told.
The only "nutty and harmful" traditions discussed on this blog are those supported and promoted by Dan -- demonic beliefs of Dan.
Glenn...
ReplyDelete"Yet he thinks he might find some "common ground" with their teachings"
Lord have mercy, Brother Glenn, I can find common ground with y'all. I can sure find common ground with Mormons. You and they, at least in theory, affirm the notion of a loving God, of working for justice, of God's grace, of at least nominal concern for the poor and at least some marginalized. That is something we all share in common.
Now I think you all have a rather graceless view or understanding of grace, probably as well as the Mormons, and your notions of a loving God are not the same as my notions of a loving God because the way you talk about your God sounds pretty hateful and hellish sometimes and very far removed from the teachings of Jesus our God. But we have bits of common ground in these general notions.
You see, Glenn, for those who believe, truly believe in the notion of salvation by God's grace, we do not insist that someone has to have a perfect understanding of God's grace or some point of theology. Do YOU think you can't be mistaken on some elements of what it means to be saved by grace and still be saved?
If I may be so bold, I suspect that Glenn was referring to theology, but that’s probably pointless to mention.
DeleteBut, by all means, provide the references to Mormon doctrine and theology that support your claims. Because a religion founded on explicit racism and forced polygamy is clearly one you want to be aligned with. Heaven forbid a “church” which has amassed wealth at levels which should sicken you.
But you keep doing you and making shit up, pretending like your shit accurately represents anyone else.
Craig...
ReplyDelete"I suspect that Glenn was referring to theology, but that’s probably pointless to mention."
Grace, welcome, love and justice ARE theology. These are the core of the teachings of Jesus Christ, our Lord, at least, according to His actual words. At least for me. Not you?
By all means, then, demonstrate your claim that the Mormon church values those things in the same way that you do. We know that they value hoarding wealth, and accumulating power is that one of those theological values you cherish?
DeleteDo atheists (honest atheists who don't pretend they're Christian) "embrace grace" or extend grace to others? Are none of them ever welcoming to those not quite like them? Do they not love or care about being treated justly or about trying to treat others justly? It is these types of things to which atheists point in their argument that they need no "skydaddy" to be "good". So pretending you've found "common ground" of any significance when dealing specifically with the theological would require something a bit more substantive than progressive sound bites.
DeleteIs Parley Pratt someone you can find a lot of common ground with? Someone who should be memorialized and celebrated?
ReplyDeleteI am not saying, Craig, that practices in some human religious traditions, such as:
ReplyDelete- slavery
- polygamy
- forced marriage
- war
- killing children deliberately or other innocents
- demonizing homosexuals
- keeping women out of the pulpit
et cetera.
...I'm not saying these are good things or Christian things. Whether it's your human tradition or Mormon human traditions that might advocate some of that, I think it's wrong and not having anything to do with Jesus or His teachings. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
But when you or a Mormon affirm the notion of a loving God or of loving welcome, or justice for and with the poor and marginalized... that is common ground. Is it not?
That's all I'm saying. Clearly I am no defender of huge swaths of Mormon teachings, including polygamy, any more than I am a believer in many so-called. Evangelical human traditions. That doesn't mean I can't find common ground on some points.
Where am I mistaken?
Well, as long as you "are not saying" something, I guess that's it. How arrogant.
DeleteDamn, we're talking about Mormons, but you pretty much nailed Islam's greatest hits there.
Well, when it comes to Mormons, that's kind of the point. They don't pay as much attention to Jesus' teachings, let alone your hunches about Jesus' teachings, preferring to place their trust in Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the rest of their prophets as well as in The Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. But, by all means seek common ground with a religion that disagrees with you about Jesus and the value of Jesus' teachings.
I guess it could be "common ground" as long as we agreed with every jot and tittle of your hunches about what those words mean and how to put them into practice.
If find your obsession with finding "common ground" based on your personal set of bullet points, defined precisely as you define them bizarre. Common ground is where everyone else agrees with Dan.
Hey, if you are so hell bent on finding "common ground" with a religion who believes in magic underwear and the Miracle of the Gulls, be my guest.
But hey, I find common ground in the tasty ice cream at the BYU creamery and the massive donuts at the stadium. Oh, and they're very nice people. Until a non Mormon tries to get a job in certain industries in SLC/Happy Valley.
I think I understand how effective their PR is for some people.
Craig
ReplyDelete"demonstrate your claim that the Mormon church values those things in the same way that you do. "
There are millions of Mormons, just like there are millions of y'all. Those individuals have a wide range of beliefs, of course, being human. I'm quite certain that many Mormons don't value grace, welcome, love, and working for justice for the poor and marginalized in the same way that I do, any more than many so-called evangelicals valued them the same way. It's an impossible task.
Now,Can I find some individual Mormons who share more in common with me in our tradition of grace and love? Yes I can.
Could it be the case that you're looking for someone who will affirm a certain set of tenets within your specific human religious tradition? And if they affirm those things in a way very similar to how you affirm them, then you know they are Christian and saved. If they agree with you and your tradition that way, that's what makes them saved...?
You see for those in the tradition of grace and love, that is too much a leaning into a salvation by works or perfection or holding at least partially perfect knowledge, which is breaking from what I think Jesus taught about grace.
So you can't demonstrate what I asked you to demonstrate, but instead choose to go off on some tangent.
DeleteYou say that you are "quite certain...that I do", by all means what is the evidence you have that justifies this certainty? Could it be that these hypothetical Mormons might not be following the Doctrines and Covenants or the Prophet's teaching?
Blah, blah, blah, Dan is imagining things he "Can" do without actually doing any of those things or answering the actual question asked.
No, it could not. Although when people affirm things which run completely counter to historic Christianity and place their primary trust in works which claim to supplant Scripture, and which are full of factual errors, I don't pretend like they are following the same belief system at all.
Again, no that would be incorrect.
Again, you have the "what I think" problem to deal with. You simply announcing what you think has no evidentiary or persuasive value whatsoever. That you base what you think on an arbitrary and truncated subset of the Gospels only, is one part of your problem. Positing a "grace" without forgiveness, redemption, atonement, or anything that connects with anything beyond parts of the red letters, another problem.
That you are obsessively pushing this off topic is simply one of the annoyances of your presence.
Well, if you can find "some" Mormons who agree with you on some points, how is that finding ground with the Mormon faith?
DeletePretending you're honestly and accurately describing some level of parallel by writing off actual, beyond-the-doubt-of-any-honest-Christian understandings as "human religious tradition", as if our "human religious tradition" isn't simply the Christian faith as revealed to us in Scripture, is your patented two-stepping dishonesty on which we can always count.
Craig...
ReplyDelete"if you are so hell bent on finding "common ground" with a religion who believes in magic underwear and the Miracle of the Gulls, be my guest."
I find this distaste for finding common ground, especially coming from a Christian, rather bizarre. Jesus came to Earth and found common ground with humanity. God has always found common ground with humanity. God has also stood firm against the abusers of humanity, the oppressors, the rich and powerful who cause harm.
But overall the message is restorative justice, atonement, in a good sense, as in being made right or at one with God.
But if I can seek to find common ground with people who believe in a perfectly loving and just God, who ALSO believe in a magical burning hell and people who imagine there was a real Adam some thousands of years ago, who goofed up and passed on a mythical sin nature to us..., if I can try to find common ground with y'all or with Muslims, why not Mormons?
To be perfectly clear I probably have even less in common with most Mormons than I do with even y'all. But people are different. That's The just life.
God so loved the whole world, the God is not willing that any should perish. God is reaching out to all, inviting all to join the beloved community, the realm of God along with the poor and marginalized who God so loves.
Terry Tempest Williams is at least one Mormon or former Mormon who I find a lot of common ground with. Read her writings and learn how great she is, if you don't knowher already.
She rejects the patriarchy and racism etc. of many traditional Mormon beliefs. Like me, in my Baptist conservative background, she holds tightly to the love and grace and concern for the poor and marginalized and justice and love of this God-given creation and world that she learned in her youth. She rejects all the otherwise more ugly or merely ridiculous traditions within her upbringing.
That's grace... that's Jesus' teachings.
Again, I don't care what you "find". If you want to find theological common ground with a religious organization such as the Mormons that is your choice. Just don't pretend like it's some big noble deal for you to cherry pick a few vague, random things, you believe that Mormons agree with you on.
DeleteMy point exactly. You have this bizarre fetish to "find common ground" with religious beliefs that run counter to yours by demanding that agreeing with you on a few vague and undefined buzzwords is some magical undertaking.
So you found one former Mormon who you claim some level of agreement with, I knew you could use Google. That this one ex Mormon rejects Mormonism (which you obsessively seek common ground with) literally makes my point. All it takes to find common ground is to reject, redefine, or abandon the actual teachings and Doctrines and Covenants of Mormonism.
"that's Jesus' teachings" as paraphrased by you.
Who knew this Mormon stuff was going to provide so much amusement.
Anything but answering a second simple direct question, right?
Wooooooooooooo!!!! Dan found one ex Mormon who's progressive views were more attractive that the Church's views. It's hilarious that somehow someone who rejected the Mormon church is magically transformed into a spokesperson for Mormon theology, It's like citing John Calvin as your source of appreciation for the RCC.
Delete"Jesus came to Earth and found common ground with humanity. God has always found common ground with humanity."
DeleteThis is absurd. Provide Chapter and verse which supports this wild claim.
" God has also stood firm against the abusers of humanity", homosexuals "the oppressors," (pro-choice progressives) "the rich and powerful who cause harm." (benefactors of progressives like George Soros).
Once again we see Dan claim to have been conservative or that he had any grasp of what he regards as conservative Christian Baptist teaching. What a fraud!
Let's play a little game, and you tell me where you find common ground.
ReplyDeleteHypothetically, let's say that some random guy said he was visited by an angel, and that angel gave him a pair of magic rocks which would help him translate an entirely new testament which was going to supplant any and all previous testaments. So this guy takes the rocks and translates the text on some magical tablets ONE LETTER AT A TIME until he gets the BoM. Now you'd think that translating something ONE LETTER AT A TIME, using magical rocks and with the help from an angel would result in a translation that was amazingly accurate, wouldn't you? Imagine how surprised you'd be to find out that this book that was perfectly translated contained over 3000 significant errors. Wouldn't that be a red flag? Then when you consider that precisely zero of the claims in this book have been confirmed by any other means, again red flag? Does that sound like a religion you'd want to have common ground with?
Or, how about a "god" who appears in a dream and tells you precisely where the biggest, richest, gold mine in the Salt Lake Valley is. I mean this god leads you right to the precise spot to get big rich mining gold (leaving aside the environmental damage this god is sanctioning), so you dig where god says dig and find virtually zero gold. All the while staring across the valley at a mine started by non Mormons which truly is incredibly rich.
Oh, and a god that screwed up the whole negro thing so badly? Really? I mean BYU needed players, but still, letting Negroes into heaven just to win a few football games? That's who you crave common cause with?
Buy hey, they're really nice and have tasty ice cream and donuts, right?
Once again, Mormons have many crazy and awful theories and stories in their tradition. Those in the Mormon tradition who define themselves largely by the harmful or the irrational I find much less dmroom to find common ground with ... BUT then Southern Baptists were founded to defend slavery while proclaiming Jesus. They kept and still are keeping women out of pulpits and "in their place."
ReplyDeleteThey have a lot of problematic and crazy theories in their traditions too.
Once again I disagree with the crazy and the bad and find common ground in the grace and the love. What is hard to understand about that?
You see, I think you are really tied to religiosity... A belief in or a religion OF religion.
"Mormons believe THESE sets of tenets and that's what Mormons are and I'm going to tell you what those tenets are."
"Muslims believe THIS set of tenets and that's who Muslims are and I'm going to tell you what those tenets are."
The reality of human spirituality and religiosity is that people believe a lot of things. Unfortunately a lot of people believe a lot of bad things, hell, sinful babies, hedonism, or war. But very few people are simply reducible to: they are just Mormons. They are just Muslims. No one group is one blok without variations.
You'll recall in one of the Narnia books the Calormen soldier who affirmed the false god Tash, or at least thought he did. When it came right down to it he actually believed in Aslan, in God, in good, in grace. He just had an imperfect understanding of that. Humans are like that.
And so I think God teaches we are to try to find a common ground while at the same time starting by finding common ground with the poor and marginalized where God is, literally, according to Jesus.
Again, I don’t care what you “think”. It’s just made up crap you tell yourself for some unknown reason.
DeleteIt’s a pity that you confuse my pointing to Mormon and Muslims speaking for themselves about what their religious teachings are, for me speaking for them. I don’t need to speak for them they do just fine on their own.
Again, if you think something that you can’t prove, I don’t particularly care.
Again Dan validates the position that his understanding of the church of his upbringing is as fouled and corrupt as is his general understanding of Scripture itself...to whatever extent he respects it. But notable, and typical, he has to go back to the mid-19th century to find real fault with those who abused Scripture to defend slavery, much as Dan abuses Scripture to defend heinous positions like homosexuality and abortion. The result is that Dan, without meaning to do so, has demonstrated he's found common ground based on the Scriptural teaching that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and that there indeed is no one good but Him. Dan embraces grace when he helps support our arguments like this.
DeleteThe difference between Christians who misused Scripture to defend slavery and Mormons who engage is racism, is that the Christians misused their Scripture while the Mormons were following theirs. Again, much like Muslims and jihad/rape/etc.
DeleteThere is a huge difference between a religion which can be misused or abused to justify wrong, and a religion where the wrong is baked in to the very essence of the religion. Dan's example is apples and oranges, it also ignores the fact that Christians were primarily responsible (Also using Scriptural justification) to correct those who misused Scripture and end slavery.
Craig...
ReplyDelete"and a god that screwed up the whole negro thing so badly?"
Is it your theory that humans who come from a religious tradition that has terribly bad historic records on some points should be judged today by those awful actions, theories, and behaviors of others in the past? Should Calvinists today be held accountable for John Calvin's awful behaviors and theories? His religious oppression of groups he thought were wrong? Should Southern Baptists today be considered the same as the Southern Baptists who fought to defend slavery and oppress women?
See, that's a difference, too, between a religion of religiosity and rules and a tradition of grace and love. As the saying goes, none of us want to be judged on the worst parts of our history, especially when that history isn't even our own actions or beliefs.
If those bits of their religious history are part and parcel of their current beliefs, absolutely.
DeleteThe problem with your Calvin analogy is that Calvin, nor anyone else referred to Calvin as a Prophet. Or put him in a position of infallibility. Calvin was a human who was right about some things, wrong others. Yet no one today portrays him as any sort of Prophetic figure, who set specific theological standards that must be obeyed.
Who’s talking about rules, other than you. Mormons make their own rules, I’m just pointing them out.
"Is it your theory that humans who come from a religious tradition that has terribly bad historic records on some points should be judged today by those awful actions, theories, and behaviors of others in the past?"
DeleteNot so dissimilar from what you do regarding the Old Testament. But I'm not sure about whom you speak. Mormons and Muslims, if you mean them, clearly have and continue to believe absolutely and unequivocally non-Christian things. They are nothing like Christianity even when they cite Jesus. Citing Jesus doesn't make one Christian or even someone with whom true common ground exists to be found. Superficial expressions and citations isn't good enough for that.
Even you claiming Christ as your Savior is a superficial commonality with us given your shoddy, unChristian rejection of the Scriptural teaching of PSA. The belief that Jesus saves is dependent upon the acceptance of what He did to provide us that salvation.
Your "tradition of grace and love" is empty and nothing more than "anything goes"...unless YOU don't like what's going. That's not God's Will or a teaching of Jesus.
Their problem when they "cite Jesus", is that they "cite" a Jesus who is drastically different from the Jesus we meet in Scripture.
DeleteThe other difference is that Dan needs to go back over 100 years to find an example (a bad example) while the Mormon racism persisted until 2013 before it was officially disavowed.
Of course, one of the differences between Mormonism and Christianity is that Mormon Prophets can unilaterally make radical changes to Mormon scripture and theology at a whim.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI'm not mistaken on anything I wrote. I am mistaken in that I gave you the time of day and you are too foolish and stupid to recognize truth.
Mormons' idea of a loving god is one who is racist and polygamous and says Christian denominations are abominations. And yet Dan thinks LDS and real Christians see a loving God. Dan just keeps demostrating what an ignorant fool he is.
ReplyDeleteBut Dan read one thing by one ex Mormon and knows all he wants to know.
DeleteThe more Dan wants to find common ground with mormons, the more he demonstrates that he is a pawn of satan. The more he preaches HIS "Christian" beliefs, the more he proves he has no idea what the Christian faith is about. Oh, he knows the lingo but has no clue about truth.
ReplyDeleteDanny boy, racism in the LDS was never about the culture of the time, rather it is for all times. Their doctrines still teach racism, but I guess you wouldn't know that. Their god said that the blacks were in pre-history losers when they tried to force their god to accept their ideas of salvation and so they were given black skin. That is a prophetic teaching having nothing to do with culture in the 1800s, rather it was still written about as late as 1978 and they only changed because they were getting flack about their racism.
ReplyDeleteThey also still teach that black skin was the curse of Ham (totally unbiblical)
This quote is from Wiki: "White church member and BYU professor Eugene England wrote in 1998 that most Mormons still held racist beliefs, including the belief that Black people were descended from Cain and Ham and subject to their curses."
As noted elsewhere, the church only officially disavowed racism in 2013.
DeleteThis is what you get when you argue from ignorance.
Glenn claimed without support. ..
ReplyDelete"Mormons' idea of a loving god is one who is racist and polygamous and says Christian denominations are abominations. "
By all means prove this insane claim. When you can't - and you can't because no people or group of people are a block with no variations - do the right thing, the good thing, the Christian thing and apologize for your slander and demonizations.
Look, I KNOW- I don't know how y'all can fail to understand this - I KNOW fully that there are serious problems in the human traditions within the Mormon Church and their strict beliefs, ranging from the silly to the dangerous and bad. Just like there are serious problems within the so-called Evangelical Conservative religions. Do we wanna be judged by the worst among us? If so, where is the ever-loving grace of God in that slander and nonsense?
Stop with insanities and the gracelessness. THAT is not of Christ.
Dan hasn’t proven one single claim he’s made in this entire thread, but now all of a sudden he’s all about proof.
DeleteThe problem is that Dan is imposing his hunches on Mormon beliefs and doctrines. The very notion of an official Prophet who speaks directly from god seems anathema to Danny, yet that’s how the church rolls.
Neither are you, but your impassioned defense of what Mormons really, really, believe is bizarre and unsettling.
Dan, do the right thing, the good thing, the Christian thing and stop pretending you're actually a Christian. Such posturing is blasphemous. You can't name one "serious problem" with Evangelicals or current Baptists. What you regard "serious problems" are no less than devotion to the clear teachings of Scripture.
DeleteGood luck with that.
DeleteGlenn
ReplyDelete"Oh, he knows the lingo but has no clue about truth."
What I KNOW as an objective fact is that your human traditions, from the silly to the bad and evil, are literally not found within the teachings of Jesus the Christ, the risen one of God. Your human traditions, you're welcome to them but they're not the teachings of Jesus.
And I know I can show that by the simple entire absence of them within the body of Jesus' teachings. That is an objective, demonstrable, observable fact.
Now y'all choose to read into what Jesus said some other things that aren't there and that's a common thing humans do when they're trying to make sense of text. That's okay as far as it goes. But be forthright about it and say clearly, "This is what I'm reading into Jesus' words, even what I think they're clearly saying, even though it doesn't say it in so many words."
Regardless, the reality is I have studied the Bible for 60 years now and read it nearly daily. I have prayed for 60 plus years now. I have been part of church, both conservative and grace-oriented, and I DO know what the Bible does and doesn't say. What you all are claiming is NOT within the teachings of Jesus.
"Now y'all choose to read into what Jesus said some other things that aren't there..."
DeleteAs if Dan doesn't do this regularly.
"Regardless, the reality is I have studied the Bible for 60 years now and read it nearly daily. I have prayed for 60 plus years now. I have been part of church, both conservative and grace-oriented, and I DO know what the Bible does and doesn't say. What you all are claiming is NOT within the teachings of Jesus. "
More unproven claims that we are expected to simply accept because Dan states them. It's the classic example of someone claiming to be Christian because they do certain things being equivalent to someone claiming to be a car because the spend a lot of time in a garage. Of course, this claim ignores that the "teachings" directly from YHWH in the OT are also the "teachings of Jesus" or the what Jesus says outside of Dan's arbitrary limits are also important.
Dan. You pervert Scripture. We've explained repeatedly why the concepts of which we speak, named by theologians and scholars to refer to those Biblical concepts, are actual truths of Scripture.
Delete"Southern Baptists in the 1800s heavily restricted Black preachers from leading white congregations. While many white churches allowed Black individuals to attend—often sitting in segregated balconies or separate pews—they strictly prohibited Black men from holding formal pastoral leadership over white members.
ReplyDeleteThe Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) officially split from Northern Baptists in 1845 over the right of missionaries to own enslaved people. Pro-slavery founders—such as James P. Boyce and Basil Manly Jr.—defended the institution as divinely ordained and opposed racial equality long after Emancipation."
Do you consider Southern Baptists today to be racist because they had it so clearly in their history (and sexist and misogynistic as well) or do you give them grace that you're not willing to extend to Mormons?
The problem y'all still have and that you're not addressing is that you're talking about the whole group of people within that religion as if they walked in lockstep agreement. In the real world there are a range of people with different opinions within the Mormon church. I don't have to know all the Mormons to know that. That's just the human condition.
Do you not understand that? Do you seriously think that all Southern Baptists are still racist, slave-owning wannabes who want to keep women in their place?
Your human traditions of religiosity and legalism are undoing your minds. Ironically, much in the same way you suggest all Mormons are alike. First remove the plank from your eyes, an actual teaching from Jesus.
Let's start with the obvious.
DeleteThis is a stupid comparison. That SOME Southern Baptists engaged in SOME behavior in the 1800s isn't the point.
The point is that Mormons as a church held to their racist positions until 1978 and didn't officially disavow their racist positions until 2013.
"The problem y'all still have and that you're not addressing is that you're talking about the whole group of people within that religion as if they walked in lockstep agreement. "
While the problem you are having is that the above statement is factually wrong. What we are referring to is the actual position(s) of the Mormon church. Now, as to your claim, the Mormon church is much more hierarchical and monolithic than most other religious groups, bordering on a cult in this aspect. The rules that individual Mormons are required to follow are both absurd and specific. Mormons are probably the most monolithic religious group (with the exceptions of Muslims), and most of the exceptions are those who are more conservative.
If your point is that there are some Mormons who might not follow all of the rules, then congratulations for stating the obvious. The problem is, as it often is, that you take the presence of the exceptions and try to prove the rule. That you are ignorant, isn't helping.
It's hilarious that you mischaracterize our alleged "traditions of religiosity and legalism" while ignoring that the Mormon church takes "religiosity and legalism" to entirely new levels.
But you go ahead and find common ground with them.
Dan, Dan, Dan,
ReplyDeleteI can give you tons of support for my claims against LDS. Read my blog--that is where you will find my support. I cite their own teachings!!!!
I'm an ex-Mormon and know on helluva lot more about the LDS than you will ever know.
You want to deny the truth about them because you are satan's pawn.
You want to compare LDS with real Christians who you hate because that is what satan wants.
But Glenn, why would Dan look at the DATA or the evidence when he can look to his feelings (maybe he has a burning in his bosom which tells him how right he is) and cite ONE person who forsook Mormonism for progressive politics/theology.
Delete
ReplyDeleteGlenn...
"You want to compare LDS with real Christians who you hate because that is what satan wants."
No, of course not. That's stupidly false and frankly, rather childish or simple-minded "reasoning."
What I'm doing is simply asking reasonable questions. You appear to want to say all Mormons believe the same way. I'm asking you to prove it or simply humbly admit you can't and that you were mistaken to make such a stupid claim. Grow up.
Except you are not merely "asking questions" you are also making claims which you have not bothered to try to prove.
DeleteI need to clarify something in all of Dan's blather about "common ground".
ReplyDeleteObviously, we as humans can/should be able to find some level of "common ground" with virtually every other human on planet earth.
While I have serious and specific issues with the RCC, can I find "common ground" with Catholics on certain issues (abortion), absolutely. Can I spend time with, study the Bible with, and worship with Catholics? Yes. Do I agree with the every stated/official position of the RCC? No.
Likewise can I sit in a football stadium with thousands of friendly Mormons and watch a football game? Again yes. Would I ever live the lifestyle and follow their religious rules? Not a chance.
The phrase "common ground" is so vague and ridiculous as a measure of whether or not a religious group is "Christian" is simply stupid.
Are there Mormons who are Christian, probably (Glenn will probably disagree, but anything is possible and you'd hope that Christian Mormons would soon be ex Mormons), but is the Mormon religion a Christian denomination or sect? No.
Let me put it this way gentlemen: if your orthodoxy does not lead to good orthopraxy, you do not have good orthodoxy. Whether you are Mormon or Muslim or a religious conservative. I am certain there are surely some Mormons with good orthopraxy, just as there are good Christians and good Muslims with good orthopraxy and even good conservative religionists.
ReplyDeleteWith such people, whoever they are, I can find common ground. Y'all's hesitancy to even consider the notion of finding common ground is telling and not good orthopraxy.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhcahh, Danny is using fancy words now. I love how he thinks that dressing up a works righteousness system can be disguised by fancy theological terms.
DeleteThe obsession with actions/works/deeds/praxis to the exclusion of beliefs is pretty much what I'd expect.
Dan will find "common ground" with anyone (apparently even Hamas) as long as they do the works Dan has decided are the "right" works.
"if your orthodoxy does not lead to good orthopraxy, you do not have good orthodoxy."
DeleteYours doesn't, Dan. It leads you to support, defend, celebrate and enable homosexual behavior and abortion (among other sinful things). But then, I guess if one assumes God's authority to dictate what does or doesn't constitute "good practice", rather than abiding what He clearly revealed is or isn't, it's all good.
I'll simply note that the term "your orthodoxy" is self refuting. Something is either orthodox or it's not. There is no individual "orthodoxy" that is different for everyone.
Delete"The point is that Mormons as a church held to their racist positions until 1978 and didn't officially disavow their racist positions until 2013."
ReplyDeleteAnd shame on them for that. Are they not though capable of repentance, of embracing good orthopraxy?
In the meantime, the Southern Baptists have doubled down on their misogyny just this year. Should we consider all Southern Baptists not Christian for that bit of errant behavior and theology?
Nice try. Your pivot from tarring all Southern Baptists for the actions of a few was never a good comparison. Now when you find out the the Mormons persisted until 2013, you play this card.
DeleteI do so love a good accusation which is vague and nonspecific, combined with a false equivalence.
Abiding Scriptural teaching regarding appropriate male and female roles in the church is not "misogyny". Saying it is clearly constitutes willful lying. Once again, Dan and his kind assume God's authority to dictate what it is or isn't acceptable. Good luck with that.
DeleteCraig...
ReplyDelete"It's hilarious that you mischaracterize our alleged "traditions of religiosity and legalism" while ignoring that the Mormon church takes "religiosity and legalism" to entirely new levels."
Of course they do! I am not defending Mormon religious tenets. Much like other conservative religionists, they have quite bad theology on many points. I'm not defending their or your bad theology. Do y'all think the notion of trying to find common ground means embracing their bad theology, whether we're talking about Mormons or Muslims or conservative religionists of your sort?
One thousand times I will repeat it: common, Mormons have a great bit of nutty and bad theology. Much the same way you all do.
I'm ignoring nothing, including your ridiculous misrepresentation of what I have actually said.
Who knows what in the hell you are trying to do with you idiotic obsession with "common ground" (Because you found one ex Mormon who agrees with your progressive ideology). If you want to find "common ground" with a church that you have virtually nothing in common with, go to town. Just stop pretending the the Mormon church is merely one more Christian denomination.
Delete"I'm ignoring nothing, including your ridiculous misrepresentation of what I have actually said."
DeleteYou ignore the clear teaching of Scripture in favor of your marxist, "liberation theology" "progressive" heresies, preferring to call that clear teaching "bad theology".
"Just stop pretending the the Mormon church is merely one more Christian denomination."
ReplyDeleteGladly once you quit pretending you are the pope who gets to make such calls. Son, you are not God. Just stop that. That's a more reasonable starting point.
Craig...
"Who knows what in the hell you are trying to do with you idiotic obsession with "common ground"
And this really says it all, doesn't it? In the abusive, tyrannical, arrogant, pharisaical
World view of all religious extremists, the very notion of trying to find common ground is just ridiculous and beyond their comprehension. It's rather sad and pathetic how they damaged themselves this way. That's true whether we're talking about a Mormon extremist, a Muslim extremist, or religious conservative extremist in the so-called evangelical tradition, which, of course, has nothing to do with good news.
"Gladly once you quit pretending you are the pope who gets to make such calls."
DeleteI'm confused, how is it reasonable to demand that I stop doing something that I am not doing? Pointing out the specific things in Mormonism that directly contradict Christianity as well as history and science, is simply pointing out reality. That people like Smith and Young agree with this position also seems relevant.
"the very notion of trying to find common ground is just ridiculous and beyond their comprehension."
Maybe if you'd read a bit more you'd have chosen differently. But if misrepresenting me is so important to you, then I can't stop you, only correct you.
It is always appreciated when you demonstrate that things I've said are accurate.
Dan has yet chosen to explain what he believes "the Good News" actually is.
DeleteSure he has. It's some vague blather about tables and community, and stuff. Just a bunch of vague buzzwords.
DeleteThe difference is that Dan will always makes excuses for or defend Muslim or Mormon extremists, but never Christians who don't align perfectly with his hunches.
DeleteIt is impossible for a Mormon to be a Christian, simply because the believe in works salvation and their god is a man and their Jesus is a brother of Satan, etc.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I would argue that YHWH can use anything or anyone to lead someone to a saving faith regardless of their background.
DeleteSecond, I would suggest that anyone on a different religious system can become saved, yet the process of their leaving that religious system might not always be instantaneous.
Third, With YHWH all things are possible.
Obviously there are Mormon theologies and doctrines which are incompatible with Christianity. Yet, it might take a while for a Mormon to work their way out of the church after salvation.
Mormons don't have "nutty" doctrines--they have heretical and blasphemous doctrines. They are "good" because they have to work their way to godhood. "Good" Muslim are "good" and friendly until they are in a position of power and then you become their enemy.
ReplyDeleteCan't they be nutty and heretical?
DeleteYeah, at it's heart Mormonism is a works based faith (with little or no room for grace) which explains all of the rules that they must follow. It also explains all of the nutty work arounds that they've invented to dodge the rules.
It's not like Dan doesn't have his own nutty stuff.
DeleteAll Mormons believe the important doctrines the same way or they are not Mormons. Just like everyone else, they don't believe everything the same way as others, but if they disavow any doctrine then they cannot be Mormons.
ReplyDeleteOnce again Dan shows stupidity. MORMONS ARE NOT ANOTHER CHRISTIAN DENOMINATION BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT GOD AND A DIFFERENT JESUS
ReplyDeleteI don't think Dan cares about those things as much as he cares about agreeing of a few progressive notions and buzzwords.
DeleteDan thinks a Mormon can BE a Christian==not the same as becoming one. I was a Mormon and BECAME a Christian through the Navigators.
ReplyDeleteThat’s the point I was making. Unlike Vudun, which can morph around other religions, Mormonism can’t. Much like Islam.
Delete