George Floyd died last night in an encounter with a Minneapolis police officer. Video shows the officer kneeling on the neck/back of his head and the victim died after him doing this for an extended period of time.
There appears to be no reason why Mr Floyd died during this encounter, and no apparent reason for the officer to have acted as he did.
This is absolutely a horrible tragedy and there is nothing in the video evidence that gives any justification for the actions of the officer.
The mayor has turned the investigation over to the BCA and the FBI, which is a totally appropriate action given the history of the MPLS police and city government for what has been labeled "institutional racism" in the city government and police department. It is absolutely critical that the investigation be undertaken by entities not in the control of the city of Minneapolis to give the appearance of an independent and unbiased investigation.
It's being reported that the two primary officers involved have been fired. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have been fired at some point, but it seems like this action (which isn't the standard response) could be problematic at their trial. I'm 100% on board with investigating, charging, and trying these officers. However, if their firing (as opposed to a suspension pending the outcome of the investigation) ends up causing problems at trial, the conspiracy theorists will be out in full force.
One last thing. I realize that a lot of folx are going to be riled up, especially since we have partial video of the incident that is incredibly damning, although possibly incomplete. What we don't have at this point (or what I haven't seen) is evidence of motive. Given that reality, it seems reasonable to be angry at what actually happened without injecting unknown factors into it.
305 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 305 of 305Craig... "He’s going to fix institutionalized racism, because not doing anything about if fir 8 years as VP..."
Funny how the facts get in the way of stupidly false claims like this. I was just listening to a black police chief who was praising the Obama administration for listening to all black voices and implementing a series of changes and how policing works. This included the implementation of body cams on police officers in couraging more police officers to police in the communities where they live. This former police chief was praising the Obama Administration. And then noted that as soon as Trump got in office, Jeff sessions and Trump threw away all those policies.
Making stupidly false claims does nothing to make you seem credible or not part of the systemic racism problem we white people find ourselves faced with.
Art,
Mostly, yes.
1. You've demanded that I listen to "black folks", and I've listened to all sorts of "black folks", I've posted the quotes that I have because I suspect that you rarely listen to all the available "black folks" and that even if you do you simply dismiss them because they don't agree with you. In no way have I denied, hid, or covered up any other "black folks", I've merely chosen to share voices that are a minority in the community of "black folks" and who usually get attacked by folks like you. You are clearly insane if you're are going to argue that repeating the actual words of "black folks" is "supporting racist attitudes and the erasure of black voices". That literally denies reality, and has absolutely zero basis in fact.
What you appear to be saying is that "black folks" who stray from the "liberal plantation" (their term, not mine) somehow aren't really "black folks" or that their voices don't deserve to be heard. You appear to have this superiority complex that gives you some intrinsic power to decide who is racist and who isn't.
The reality is that I'm doing this for YOUR education. To demonstrate to you that "black folks" aren't some monolithic group bound forever to liberal politics. To allow you to hear the "black folks" that don't toe your line.
Your bizarre assumption that I have the power or ability to "silence" anyone is either delusional or insane.
2. No, not at all, not in any way shape or form am I suggesting that "black folks" are stupid. You may retract this lie immediately.
I don't ignore any reality. Your claim that conservative policies would be "worse" is speculative and biased. The fact remains that by any objective measure the conditions that allegedly have caused these riots (institutional racism) are conditions that (specifically in MN) have been protected, nurtured, and implemented by progressives. I'm not hiding anything, nor am I suggesting that all conservative policies are a panacea for any one ethnic group. What I am suggesting is that if "institutional racism" exists, and if the institutions that promise to fix "institutional racism" perpetuate it, then maybe it's worth considering who you vote for. Elections have consequences. In MN 40+ years of electing the same folks at the city an state level have resulted in a metro area where "black folks" are in a situation that virtually all objective metrics show isn't getting better.
Look, if you're willing to settle for encouraging "black folks" to vote for 40 more years of what's gotten things to this point, go right ahead. Just be consistent and own the fact the the DFL hasn't done what they promised at the city and county level in the Twin Cities after more than 40 years in power. If you want to encourage "black folks" to accept another 40 years of poor schools, a massive deficit of affordable housing, food deserts (made significantly worse by the riots), and poor employment options by continuing to blindly vote DFL, then own that. If you want to try to scare "black folks" away from voting for conservative solutions, because it MIGHT be different, go right ahead. Just me a man and won the undeniable reality that the situation for "black folks" in the Twin Cities is maintained by the DFL and is unlikely to get better.
The problem you have with this is that you move from my asking reasonable questions about who is responsible for the conditions here, and why people would vote for the people who maintain the current conditions, to putting words in my mouth.
If anything, I'd say that the fact that a it's the fact that so many of the "black folks" her AREN'T stupid that makes me wonder.
So in the 8 years of the P-BO/Biden administration the big thing they did to end "institutional racism" was to encourage body cameras for police. Don't get me wrong, body cameras are a reasonably good idea (with some privacy concerns). But the body cameras that the MPD wear didn't do a damn thing for George Floyd of Justine Damond. If your idea of a "big accomplishment" to end "institutional racism" was to nibble with one symptom, then your clearly hopeless.
Community policing is simply common sense. Yet Chauvin was allowed by the MPD to live a considerable distance from the community he policed. This policy brought to you by the DFL.
I get that you need a boogyman to generate fear.
What's interesting is your response to the "black folks" who I've exposed you to. Your response hasn't been to embrace them. Your response hasn't been to reasonably and objectively dispute their comments based on facts. Your response hasn't been anything but to call me a "racist" (or in your usual fashion, call me a racist while leaving yourself a semantic escape hatch), and spew false accusations. You assume that everyone I posted is what you consider "conservative", the reality is that I have no idea what the politics are of all of the people I've quoted. The reason is that I don't have a ideological litmus test. I don't automatically exclude people's voices because of their political philosophy.
What I'm doing is looking at the reality of life in the metro area I live in, looking at the conditions that caused massive riots, and the repeated claims of "institutional racism", and asking why.
If you are going to assign the responsibility of all of the negative conditions i the Twin Cities to "institutional racism", then isn't it reasonable to closely examine the institutions? To closely examine those who control the institutions? To not look through a lens of blind partisanship, or a lens of fear of different solutions, but at the facts? Most of all, does it make sense to continue to empower those who run the institutions that perpetuate racism?
We keep hearing protesters say that since the system is racist, that we should tear it down. What good does it do to tear down the system, if you are going to rebuild it with the same raw materials?
The fact that even suggesting that the political party that has been in charge of the city/county government bears responsibility for the conditions in it's jurisdiction, has brought out such a response from you is interesting. The fact that you think that certain ideas should be excluded from consideration because of fear, is simply sad.
Craig... "I suspect that you rarely listen to all the available "black folks" and that even if you do you simply dismiss them because they don't agree with you..."
Well that may be your reasoning, but your reasoning is stupid and stupid Lee Foss. I live and work in Black communities. I'm part of a Justice organization with black communities. This includes the more conservative black communities. Of course I hear these arguments. I'm not saying these arguments are wrong. Is it helpful to have more father's at home if you were single parents? Of course. Liberals are not arguing against that. That suggestion is just stupidly false. Perhaps just part of your blindness when it comes to black people and liberal people, both.
Fact remains, I asked you to listen to all black voices, King ask you to listen to all black voices, and you only cite those who agree with you. That is literally silencing on your blog the voice of mainstream Black America. This is part of the problem of institutional and systemic racism.
Craig... "What you appear to be saying is that "black folks" who stray from the "liberal plantation" (their term, not mine) somehow aren't really "black folks" or that their voices don't deserve to be heard."
That is not what it appears I am doing because it's not what I'm doing. It's what you are reading into what I'm saying in spite of what I said. In contradiction to what I have actually said.
That you continue to literally get ass backwards what I'm saying is not evidence that I'm saying stupid s*** like this. It's evidence that you don't understand words and communication.
Craig... "I don't ignore any reality. Your claim that conservative policies would be "worse" is speculative and biased..."
It is the opinion held by the majority of black people, in election after election, poll after poll, church after church, neighborhood after neighborhood, household after household. That you want to dismiss this makes it sound like you believe did the vast majority of black people are just not as smart as you to recognize this. It is patronizing, condescending and part of the systemic racism in White America.
Listen to what all black people are telling you.
Craig... " The fact remains that by any objective measure the conditions that allegedly have caused these riots (institutional racism) are conditions that (specifically in MN) have been protected, nurtured, and implemented by progressives.."
Bullshit. That is a speculative and idiotic claim. The violence against black people it has been brought to light is part of an ongoing problem for centuries. Policies across-the-board have contributed to getting us here. That you ignored that reality and try to suggest it's just the Democrats is another way of silencing and abusing the black community. They aren't as stupid as you think they are.
Craig... "The reality is that I'm doing this for YOUR education. To demonstrate to you that "black folks" aren't some monolithic group bound forever to liberal politics. To allow you to hear the "black folks" that don't toe your line."
Your arrogance is exceeded only by your ignorance. What in the hell makes you think you know what black voices I listen to? What part of, "Listen to ALL black voices" that I've been saying are you failing to understand? Do you think I would say that if I didn't? Again, your arrogance is making you sound insane.
"But the body cameras that the MPD wear didn't do a damn thing for George Floyd of Justine Damond. If your idea of a "big accomplishment" to end "institutional racism" was to nibble with one symptom, then your clearly hopeless."
Why don't you try reading what I actually wrote? I said that the black police chief speaking on NPR was praising the Obama Administration for the SERIES of policies that they implemented.
Do you even try to read for understanding? Or is reading carelessly just to glean something to try to attack all that you care about? I mean, I know that this is the immoral Trump approach, to bully and attack all the time, but I thought you might be different than the stupid and irrational Trumpistas.
Craig... "Your response hasn't been to reasonably and objectively dispute their comments based on facts..."
I'm NOT disputing them. What part of listen to ALL black voices are you failing to understand? How obtuse are you?
"I'm NOT disputing them. What part of listen to ALL black voices are you failing to understand? How obtuse are you?"
What part of, you didn't read what I wrote before commenting do you not understand?
My literal and explicit point was that you failed to dispute their comments based on facts. That you are avoiding certain "black folks" voices.
"I said that the black police chief speaking on NPR was praising the Obama Administration for the SERIES of policies that they implemented."
You are correct you did make that claim. Of course you could only provide one "semi concrete" example. So I responded to your bad example, instead of your vague assertions.
"Your arrogance is exceeded only by your ignorance. What in the hell makes you think you know what black voices I listen to? What part of, "Listen to ALL black voices" that I've been saying are you failing to understand?"
What arrogance, expressing my opinion is arrogant? When was the last time you posted anything written by a black conservative anywhere? How you you demanding (insinuating that I don't) I listen to ALL "black folks" not arrogant.
"Do you think I would say that if I didn't? Again, your arrogance is making you sound insane."
I have no doubt that you don't listen to "ALL" black folks. To assert that you do is the very height of arrogance based on a false statement. If having an opinion is arrogant, then pot meet kettle.
"It is the opinion held by the majority of black people,..."
So what. If that opinion is false, then what? Is it reasonable to hold an opinion that is counter to the reality that one lives in?
"That you want to dismiss this makes it sound like you believe did the vast majority of black people are just not as smart as you to recognize this. It is patronizing, condescending and part of the systemic racism in White America."
If you are going to complain, then try to avoid engaging in the behaviors you bitch about. It makes you look petty, stupid, and insane.
The fact is that I do not "dismiss" any of those things. Instead, I ask questions to try to understand those things. As I said, my questions come because I believe that "black folks" are "smart" (in the sense that there is a spectrum of intelligence that correlates to the rest of humanity). Because I wonder why smart people would continue to re elect the same people who maintain and foster "systemic racism". Because I wonder why smart people wouldn't ask themselves, "Hey things have sucked here for over 40 years, why don't we try something different". I understand that I don't fit your neatly constructed box of prejudices that you like to put "conservatives" in, but if you've got to make shit up to maintain your prejudices then maybe it's your that's the problem, not me.
The flip side of this is that I support and encourage "back folks" who want to get free from the "liberal plantation"' and think for themselves. That's why I will be supporting Lacy Johnson for congress in the 5th district financially.
"That is a speculative and idiotic claim."
Except for the pesky facts and data you'd be right. MPLS/Hennipen County/MPLS schools are the result of decades of DFL rule.
FYI, even Republicans up here are liberal.
"That you ignored that reality and try to suggest it's just the Democrats is another way of silencing and abusing the black community."
No, I haven't. I realize that it's really all the Whigs fault. No, what I have done is pointed out that our local DFL controlled city/county has been promising to fix these problems for 40+ years and haven't done it. No, it's a call for the black community to speak up, think for themselves, and stop voting DFL because mom and dad voted DFL. But feel free to twist and shape my words to fit your needs, just don't be surprised when I point it out.
"They aren't as stupid as you think they are."
Why do you continue with this lie?
"Is it helpful to have more father's at home if you were single parents?"
Yes, facts and data suggest that it's more than "helpful", just look.
"Of course. Liberals are not arguing against that."
Really? Would you agree that arguing that biological, genetic relationship doesn't define families is arguing for an intact nuclear family?
That's your best milquetoast answer that it's "helpful" to have dad around. Pitiful.
It's "helpful" to have kids read at or above grade level, but MPLS schools can't manage that feat.
The problem is that this is a dodge. It's not a question of what "liberals" argue against. It's a question of 40+ years of a liberal city/county government failing to live up to their claims. It's about encouraging "black folks" to think for themselves and not buy into things just because "it's always been that way".
Craig... "My literal and explicit point was that you failed to dispute their comments based on facts."
???!!! I. An. Not. Disputing. Them!
Yes, that's my point. You clearly object to them, or at least object to my choosing those examples to post. Are you now claiming that you are in agreement with the "black folks" I posted?
Craig... "at 11:45 AM
Yes, that's my point. You clearly object to them, or at least object to my choosing those examples to post..."
???!!!!
I don't know how else to say this , Craig. I am not disputing their words.
I am not "clearly objecting" to their words.
I am objecting to YOU not listening to or reporting ALL black voices. The people you cited were reporting their opinions and I'm hearing what they are saying. They are welcome to their opinions.
"I am objecting to YOU not listening to or reporting ALL black voices."
So, your objecting to what your prejudices lead you to believe about which "black folks" I listen to. You've established an arbitrary standard, based on your prejudices, an arbitrary standard that you have absolutely zero way to accurately measure or determine,and criticize me for failing to meet this absurd standard.
The fact is that there is no possible way that you listen to ALL "black folks", if you had a shred of honesty you'd admit that it's a silly and petty way to try to establish some sort of faux moral superiority.
I'm so glad that you are magnanimous enough to allow the "black folks" to be able to have their very own opinions, very generous. Of course demeaning "data" as opinion seems strange. But you do you.
If this semantic bullshit is the hill you want to make your stand on, go right ahead. Because it increases the likelihood that you've got nothing besides "Listen to the random middle aged southern white guy tell you about how and who you must listen to "black folks"". No, it's not condescending much.
It's not as egregious as the girl in CA, who stopped her car, got out and ran up to a black man boarding up a building, posed with him, then hopped back in the Mercedes and drove off. So there's that.
Two things that point to systemic racism in your responses, Craig.
1. You only post common sense comments, and nothing that reflects the "voices" of idiocy and falsehood. One can't contradict the BLM/white guilt narratives and not be racist.
2. Dan says you are.
One of the most insipid and moronic arguments is that we aren't listening to all black voices. Just because we find those Dan prefers to be wanting, doesn't mean we're not listening...intently. It is because we listen, hear and have a brain that we reject the narrative Dan prefers in favor of fact-based, reasoned voices he doesn't. It's really pretty stupid to see a problem in presenting voices with whom we agree. One would think Dan's not doing that, while never seeing any conservative black voices presented by him or his troll.
Black people ARE stupid for voting Democrat, as are everyone else who does. Blacks suffer not from conservative policies, but by the very policies the Dems impose under the guise of helping them. So many black people are beginning to wake up to that reality, but Dan...and especially his troll...disparage and insult such people, as to leftist blacks who call them "house niggers", "sell-outs" and a myriad of other despicable names for the crime of thinking for themselves. It's always been the Democrat party who has been patronizing and exploiting black people for votes.
Dan could support his argument that conservatives have worse policies if I helped him do it. It's simply not true. The major problem those like Dan have with conservatism is their unwillingness to divide and play the identity politics game. While Dems and lefties appeal to groups, conservatives work on behalf of ALL Americans without regard to the superficial differences lefties depend upon for their exploitative strategies, which is all part of their systemic stupidity.
“Let me say it louder: To acknowledge we have had a problem with racial issues for a long time in our beloved America does NOT mean that America is a racist country!
We are not. We enjoy more freedom and opportunity here than anywhere on the planet.”
Kay C James
BVM
Dan has made the argument elsewhere that he read and studied so much conservative theology 50 years ago, and that because he somewhat remembers the “gist” of what he read he knows enough about conservative theology that he can state with certainty that there is nothing he’s not read before.
I could make that argument about black voices. That the voices I’m posting aren’t recycling the same old Jackson/Sharpton shtick. That these voices understand that science debunked “hands up, don’t shoot”. That I’ve heard enough of the same old stuff, that hearing black voices that don’t just regurgitate the same old stuff are refreshing.
Or, I could point out the reality that I listen to significantly more voices than I post, and what I listen to is more important than what I post.
Or, I could point out that Dan, rarely posts things he disagrees with unless they’re accompanied by negativity.
Or I can just acknowledge that racist has been overused and debased to the point that it means everything, and therefore nothing.
“White guilt is so exhausting.
Please stop feeling bad for me because I’m black.
You’re trying so hard to not be racist you’re literally being racist.”
CJ Pearson
BVM
“"Connection and trust happen when one heart meets another. What destroys connection and trust like nothing else? Invalidation. Invalidation occurs when a person’s experience is all that exists to him or her. And he or she then moves to negate the other person’s experience, treating it as somehow not real or non-existent. You may also be familiar with the term “gaslighting” in this instance."
Dr. Henry Cloud”
BVM
I think that you can apply the Cloud quote to all of the white folks who’ve gone out to help the victims and spend the time posting selfies on IG. We’re a society that’s become focused on our existence, our experience, our truth, and just our in general.
I’m not sure that’s the point Cloud was making, but it’s what hit me.
Big news. DFL governor announces that his administration will be investigating the MPD for issues over the last 10 years or so. Probably a good idea, wonder why they waited so long.
“How many unarmed blacks were killed by cops last year? 9. How many unarmed whites were killed by cops last year? 19. More officers are killed every year than are unarmed blacks. When do the #BlueLivesMatter protests begin?”
Larry Elder
BVM
David Dorn, day his name too.
Craig...
Dan has made the argument elsewhere that he read and studied so much conservative theology 50 years ago
Not that facts appear to matter to you, but I've read and studied conservative teachings and theology FOR 50 years, but not as much over the last ~15 or so years. But not "50 years ago), but from being taught it from a babe until I was 16 and then jumping in deeply into it from the time I was 16 until I was about 30 and then slowly fading away from it. I gave up on it because people wouldn't/couldn't answer reasonable questions that pointed to what I saw to be holes in the morality, reason and godliness of modern conservatism. It's only gotten worse in the years since, with people like Trump coming to represent "conservatism," which is just bile-inducing.
Look, you’ve thrown out so many different versions of how many years you’ve been “studying” conservative theology that it doesn’t even matter anymore.
You’ve been honest that you haven’t studied anything in the last 15 years because it’s all “bankrupt” in various ways and that you really don’t need to because just having the “gist” of something that you read decades ago is all the information you really need to be an expert.
I note the pride in your statement, it’s cool pride’s one of those “regular” “small” sins so don’t worry you’ll be fine.
And still, despite Dan's claims to have studied for however many years it is today, he continues to demonstrate any understanding of conservatism, politically OR theologically. And so long as he continues to support the death cult Democratic Party, their candidates and policies, or any of the other sundry leftist characters, he's in no position to speak of what might be "bile-inducing"...except that truth is anathema to the false.
BTW, Trump's policies have been conservative, which is why the country was doing so well until the covid and "black voices" situation, and why conservatives support his reelection. Conservatives tend to favor conservative policies. Sue us.
“"Violence is when an agent of the state kneels on a man's neck until all of the life is leached out of his body. Destroying property, which can be replaced, is not violence. To use the same language to describe those two things is not moral" -@nhannahjones on CBSN”
BVI
Wow. That last one (June 3, 2020 at 6:23 AM) was pretty stupid. (What's "BVI"? I think I get "BVM", but this new one confuses. A typo?)
I saw the following and found it very relevant (let me know if any of it sounds familiar to you):
https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/03/white-paternalism-is-racism-too/
The following is relevant, too. In it, we see someone who actually does more than pontificate, who actually does some research...adding to research that has already blown the BLM narrative out of the water, if only they and white-guilt apologists would take the time to listen to SENSIBLE voices:
https://time.com/4404987/police-violence/?xid=tcoshare
"we show up for work anyway. And we contain our rage, tears, fear and sadness. We write to each other in group chats. We send each other articles that articulate our feelings. We post and repost and retweet on social media. But we don’t take our pain to work.
So while you navigate this pandemic which has ravaged our way of life — and prematurely taken the lives of so many no matter what race — acknowledge that burden is falling on your Black colleagues disproportionately. And know that they’ll never show it. They’ve learned to navigate their worlds too well for that. And although we were told the degrees and the jobs and the accomplishments would somehow protect us from being treated like second-class citizens; although we were made to believe that working hard and contributing to society would mean society would treat us like human beings, we’ve learned the painful truth — that’s a lie.
On behalf of your Black colleagues: we’re not okay. And you shouldn’t be either."
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/05/9841376/black-trauma-george-floyd-dear-white-people?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=facebook_share&fbclid=IwAR07OiCNII01gNiahw49T1sigF72Y3N99BG3Z-ffQW_kgp07l5Td7Jf-QkM
Art,
BVI was clever (in my mind) when I typed it. Now that I can't remember what I meant, it's clearly not as clever.
Wow Dan, that was very helpful.
I'm sure that the victims of black rioters who don't have jobs to go to, will be comforted.
Also, going to work when things in your life absolutely suck isn't necessarily just a ethnicity thing, it's a universal thing.
They're right, that no one is OK right now.
I've asked this before and don't remember if I ever got an answer, so I'll ask again.
Is anti-Semitism a form of racism?
The answer is absolutely yes. By that I mean that it is a different name for the same disease...treating some differently due to superficial differences that don't justify it.
BTW, we do acknowledge that more black people have succumbed to COVID. We also acknowledge there are clear reasons why having to do with things like zinc deficiency, for example. I don't know why that's supposed to mean something significant to anyone else. But where I work, where the blacks comprise over 90% of the workforce (that shows up), they DO show it. The wearing of masks, gloves and for some, plastic shields over their masks.
I think an argument can be made, judging by crime statistics, that they need to their own like human beings before daring to point the finger elsewhere.
“Justice looks like what we say it looks like,” organizer Nakia Wallace shouts, leading protesters gathered at Gratiot and Van Dyke in Detroit. ”
BVM
I guess organizing a posse and stringing then up from a tree is on the agenda now.
“How many unarmed blacks were shot and killed by cops last year? 9. How many unarmed whites were shot and killed by cops last year? 19. More officers are killed every year than are unarmed blacks shot and killed by cops. When do the #BlueLivesMatter protests begin?”
Given the fact that we now have at least 2 black LEO dead from the riots, it seems like it might be helpful to bring data to the party.
I’m wondering if black lives value fluctuates depending of how much it helps the narrative.
“Underneath our political debate is a moral debate and underneath that is a spiritual battle ”
BVM
“Politically, there are few ideas more potent than the notion that all your problems are caused by other people and their unfairness to you.”
Thomas Sowell
BVM
Art,
I would agree that racism and anti-Semitism are virtually, if not identically the same thing.
Your "blacks are more susceptible to Covid" comment is interesting. The same people (in a general sense) who jumped all over the MI protesters, and others, for failing to take appropriate precautions against Covid, are the ones encouraging that protests and riots.
So, lets look at the optics.
We have a population (blacks) who appear to be at a higher risk of Covid, engaging an multiple behaviors that theoretically put them at a higher risk of exposure to Covid. Yet, the social distancing shamers are pretty silent on this. It's almost like they either want, or don't care about. a spike in Covid that could result from this cavalier disregard of appropriate precautions. If I was bent towards conspiracy, I could spin this into quite a tale of those who claim to support blacks seeing a spike in Covid in the protesters and their families/communities as a good thing.
Or, in an ironic twist Floyd infects Chauvin with Covid and Chauvin dies from it.
Back to the optics, though.
At the same time that mobs of "black folks" are rampaging through NY violating both numerous laws as well as social distancing, the NYPD is preventing Jews from gathering for prayer.
One final thought about Chauvin.
He is currently being held in a maximum security prison, segregated from the general population. Where, it's been reported, he's on a suicide watch.
How many other's charged with lower murder counts are placed in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison before their trial? What do you think being held in solitary confinement in a maximum security facility, before trial, does to someone's mental health? If he commits suicide, is justice done? Based on Dan's vague and unspecific comments, it seems reasonable to suspect that Chauvin ranks somewhat lower than Hitler on the "sin scale". I wonder if this means if he just suffers the "hell on earth" of solitary confinement, or if there's some degree of punishment waiting in the afterlife.
If/when he is convicted, he'll be remanded to his final place of incarceration. When he ends up there, he will almost certainly be in solitary confinement for the entirety of his term. I've heard some suggest that solitary confinement is "cruel and unusual punishment", and I can see how it could be incredibly damaging to a person's mental health. So, are the folks who want justice arguing for "cruel and unusual"? Further, if he ever gets into the general population, it seems inevitable that he will be subject to physical and sexual assault, and most likely murdered. Does that sound like justice/
Finally as the toll of black LEO (active and retired) rises, why are the BLM folks not chanting "Say their names" also? Something like 80 "black folks" were shot/killed in Chicago last weekend, what about them? Don't their lives matter?
Clearly since all four officers have been arrested, the justification for the continued rioting has or should have (at least temporarily), been removed. Obviously if Ellison screws this up, the riots will be much worse, and (according the the supporters logic) more justified.
The more I watch the coverage, listen to black voices, and to the WL's who are talking pretty damn loudly, I'm forced to consider the question "What is justice?" more and more frequently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaXkxdVg85c
The above is from Steven Crowder as he walks along a street replete with boarded up windows after riots broke out in nights previous. It's about 47 minutes long, but from about the 00:26:00 mark, we see Crowder attempting to "listen to black voices" as he approaches a black dude painting on a building (talented dude, for sure). But what transpires from there is illustrative of the difficulties in "listening to black voices". It seems quite clear from the deterioration of this situation (no, it doesn't get physical), that "listening" doesn't even allow for seeking clarification. Thus, we're faced with what appears to me to be very problematic...that it's not enough to "listen to black voices", but to accept without question everything any black voice is saying. No, no, no! Don't you dare question anything! Let them ramble on without any attempt...hell...without any intention to support claims made, to prove allegations, to truly have the "conversation" we're told we're too afraid to have.
The dude demonstrates something that lends validity to the position that too many black people presume racism as the norm rather than the exception, when Steve points out that he isn't racist. The dude says something along the lines of, "YOU might not be, but you could be!" Yet he doesn't like it turned around when Crowder says, (or words to this effect) "YOU might not have been a rioter, but you could be!"
Now, certainly this particular black dude may simply not be the most articulate and eloquent black voice to which we should be listening, but his message is typical in the presumptions and distortions with regard to the reality regarding the typical black perspective on racism in America. We here the same old "They're killing us" nonsense, as if the real threat to Black Lives is some race other than their own. Statistics simply do not back this up.
But if we, for the sake of argument, pretend everything about the perspective of "black voices" is 100% true, to dismiss any concerns the listener might have about what he's hearing does not strike me as the best way to insure that the listener will walk away giving a flying rat's backside about ever "listening to black voices" again. Whine all you want about hundreds of year of injustice, but it I can't even ask a question or two, it's hard not to believe it's "justice" they're truly after. The racism of such people is crystal clear if we can't get any qualification when "YOU PEOPLE" is a constant expression.
As the "conversation" gets more heated, due to Crowder daring to guide this guy away from crass generalizations and BLM platitudes, some Dan Trabue-like white dude comes up and insists this black artist has permission to paint on the walls of businesses. When Crowder asks about the particular business being "enhanced" by this dude's splendid artwork, a similar kind of "don't ask questions" response comes out of the geek's pie hole. The guy claims some sort of affiliation with some kind of community organization (like another "community organizer") who has granted permission for guys like the black artist to do what he's doing. Yet, he doesn't know the owner of the business upon whose wall the artist paints, or how to get a hold of him/her to confirm that the business owner has granted permission to have his/her wall "enhanced" in this manner. "JUST LET THE DUDE PAINT ON IT!!!" It's as if the position is that everyone has the right to express their "voice" in this manner, true permission be damned. The white guy is clearly a white-guilt apologist for black outrage at whatever blacks insist is reality...regardless of whether or not it truly is reality. Very much like our own Dan Trabue and his troll.
The obvious problem with "listen to all black voices", is that it presumes facts not in evidence. Those facts being that all black voices have something equally valid to contribute to the conversation. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't listen to those voices, but it does mean that they might not be helpful in forging a path forward.
What's interesting is P-Bo's credibility on these issues. He has certainly lived a life of much greater privilege than many/most black Americans, yet his voice is treated as gospel.
Further, I think that "all" doesn't really mean "all" in the context of those who are the loudest. It really means, listen to "all the black voices that agree with us". Again, everyone has the freedom to speak into the conversation and people shouldn't be excluded from the opportunity to speak. Yet, certain black voices are ignored, excluded, or derided because they might not align with the narrative. Often these voices are labeled "Uncle Tom, or House Nigger" by the same "black folks" who say that we should listen to "all" black voices.
I saw someone on Twitter last night post a picture of Captain Cook being killed by Hawaiians, and commented that the Haitian revolution was an example of all of the wonders brought about by violence. Clearly this gentleman had little or no grasp of history, or of the Haitian rebellion. The Haitian revolution was an absolutely amazing feat of arms, brought about by slaves. They were able to defeat the French, Spanish and English on the way to throwing off the French rule. It's truly a more amazing and inspiring story that the American Revolution, given how little the slaves had. Yet, in the end Napolean won by removing Toussaint from the post war scene. Instead of an attempt to rebuild the robust economy (Haiti was more valuable to France than Louisiana), Dessalines first move was to slaughter all of his "enemies", blancs, and "coloreds". Even though there are a few "bright spots" in modern Haiti, I think it's safe to say that the Haitian revolution hasn't been a stunning example of success. I know that this is a simplistic, short, incomplete history of Haiti and that it doesn't account for the involvement of other countries along the way. But to it does point out that the Haitian revolution, for all it's nobility and promise, did not translate into a successful post revolution paradise.
I believe that it is critical that these types of discussions need to be able to successfully balance feelings, and Truth. We can't invalidate peoples feelings, yet we can't create anything substantial by ignoring Truth.
As I implied earlier, if not said outright, we listen and have been listening. Each of us needs to be allowed to decide for ourselves if what we're hearing is true. If it seems false, the speaking has an obligation to back up what they're saying or alter their argument in a manner that makes it more clear and easier to understand and therefore come to agreement. No one is required to take anything at face value, even if that face was recently beaten by a cop. Tell the tale, I'll take note and then I'll seek...from the speaker or elsewhere...evidence or proof that the tale is true before deciding if I should side or oppose that speaker. If that's not fair to allow for those encouraged to "listen to black voices", then "listen to black voices" is just a ruse.
Paintywaist, white-guilt lefties don't get that.
“Everyone in Minneapolis should know that we came very close last night to abolishing one of the Minneapolis Police Departments, the Minneapolis Park Police.
In a 5-4 vote the Minneapolis Park Board decided to keep the Minneapolis Park Police and NOT transform them into a Park Ranger organization.
The same 5 commissioners that voted to keep the police are those who most adamantly opposed transitioning our parks to pesticide free.
There are wolves in sheep’s clothing all over this city, neo-liberals who give lip service to equity and progress but continually vote to police and poison people in parks.
Voting for a transition to park rangers:
Brad Bourn
AK Hassan
Londel French
Kale Severson
Voting against a transition to park rangers:
Chris Meyer
Jono Cowgill
Meg Forney
LaTrisha Vetaw
Steffanie Musich
We need a more radical and willing leadership at all levels of government including our parks where children are over-policed and poisoned with pesticides because of these last 5 commissioners.
Yes, they did vote to end the relationship with MPD and to transition the uniforms from blue to green. This is not enough. They could have disarmed and defunded or entirely transitioned the organization but instead they decided to focus on the color of the uniforms as the main reform they placed on the police unit they have power over, the Minneapolis Park Police Department.
These 5 fake progressives need to go. They lie to us during campaigns. They drag the good names of park volunteers through the mud, and they continue to support a police department that has acted with malice and violence toward the people of this city.
We don’t need cops in parks. Park rangers could do everything that the police do, only better.”
If we want real transition in Minneapolis, we’re going to have to elect new leaders.
“STOP generically telling us to VOTE in response to all of the police brutality we have right now.
Yes we should vote. But we have to be VERY specific.
Democrats, from top to bottom, are running the cities with the worst police brutality in America right now.
We voted for them.”
Shaun King
BVM
I note that Dan, in an incredibly brave move, posted the text to the King speech he’s been touting. I’ll note that I addressed multiple points of both agreement and disagreement in this thread, and Dan chose to ignore those. I guess he only wants to discuss that speech where he can hide behind the delete button.
I’m guessing that King could never have anticipated the dismantling of the black nuclear family, and all the negative economic impact of that development, when he gave that speech.
I’m sure MLK would be proud of the 70% of black kids who grow up without a father.
I wanted to draw attention to some items from the comment above. It was easier to grab the whole thing than pieces of it.
"The same 5 commissioners that voted to keep the police are those who most adamantly opposed transitioning our parks to pesticide free."
Shocking that the litmus test is that one must agree with every aspect of the green agenda.
"There are wolves in sheep’s clothing all over this city, neo-liberals who give lip service to equity and progress but continually vote to police and poison people in parks."
No, they're liberals. They're just not quite as extreme as the other liberals. If you don't agree with us, you want to "poison people". That's persuasive.
"We need a more radical and willing leadership at all levels of government including our parks where children are over-policed and poisoned with pesticides because of these last 5 commissioners."
Translation, "We want people who are MORE radical then the ones we have. But we also want ones who'll do what we want.". Because more radical is always better, right?
"These 5 fake progressives need to go. They lie to us during campaigns."
Shocking, progressives lie to people during campaigns. Like for the last 40+ years in MPLS.
"If we want real transition in Minneapolis, we’re going to have to elect new leaders."
Because 40+ years of progressive/liberal/DFL leaders and policies haven't worked. Therefore MPLS needs more of the same, only MORE RADICAL.
Doesn't that sound like a panacea?
At least they acknowledge that they've been lied to for 40+ years and that they need to vote the liars out.
It's a start.
https://trib.com/opinion/columns/williams-some-facts-worth-knowing/article_441b0ac3-56cd-5a2f-8ea9-5bb18ccdc49e.html
BVM
“Achievement is not what liberalism is about. Victimhood and dependency are. Many things that would advance blacks would not advance the liberal agenda. That is why the time is long overdue for the two to come to a parting of the ways.”
Thomas Sowell
BVM
“We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.”
BVM
Because anything we can do to decrease the intact nuclear family in the black community is a great plan.
Did you delete Dan's comment? I thought I saw on from him on my phone. It had two points he was trying to insist were intelligent and insightful and I had hoped to respond directly to them.
In any case, it should be clear that the notion than no one listens to black voices is absurd. How can we not hear them, since there are so many spewing the same tripe that the conservative voices you highlight oppose. People like Dan, and the race-hustlers he finds so compelling, fail to consider their points of view might be crap. Indeed, they don't care that anyone finds them worthy of acceptance or not. They only insist that all must. That's not gonna happen, and more black people than ever are giving voice to the reality that they are not any more than individuals with their own perspectives...that they are not obliged to stay on the BLM plantation. One would think BLM people would understand this, but that they ignore it shows that they are not concerned with what "ALL" black voices are saying. That is, Dan's opinion about the conservative voices highlighted here is patently hypocritical.
Belay the last. I just realized that what I saw was comment 200 on this thread to which a response has been published. I thought I had clicked on "newest" comments...that which begins on the next page with comment 201. My bad. Carry on. Feel free to delete both this and my previous comment.
I thought this black voice most relevant to the discussion, though Dan will blow it off. It's from one of the founders of the Blexit movement... a black movement that is based on acknowledging facts and reality in the very way BLM absolutely does not. It's a full interview and worth the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Y35EpOiFc&feature=emb_rel_end
“Do racists care whether someone black is married or unmarried? If not, then why do married blacks escape poverty so much more often than other blacks, if racism is the main reason for black poverty?”
For what it’s worth, Rasmussen is reporting that polling has Trumps approval among black likely voters rising.
What that means is that I was right...The stupid ones continue supporting those that have been complicit in their problems.
I wouldn’t say stupid, because I think it’s more about habit or being misinformed rather than lack of intelligence.
It's stupid because there's no excuse for not doing one's due diligence to learn what is or isn't true. If you don't like "stupid", then "lazy" works for me, too. I've told the story before about my youth, wherein I thought I was Democrat until I began to notice things attributed to Republicans with which I agreed. It made me look, study, investigate, and I found that the things in which I believed and thought the best way the world should be were all promoted by conservatism (not all Repubs are truly conservative). I don't mean "conservatism" the way lefty, Louisville frauds mean it. I mean actual conservatism. It's stupid/lazy to vote out of habit or because Mommy voted that way. It's stupid/lazy to believe one needn't seek information, thereby remaining misinformed out of choice... the stupid, lazy choice of doing nothing with regards staying abreast of what's going on. And it's certainly stupid...unabashedly stupid...to continue voting for the same party of people after years of getting nowhere and still say the other party is doing you harm.
I'll continue to say "stupid" because that's what it is, and that's what they are. Sincerity means nothing when one is sincerely bringing about one's own suffering...which is stupid.
I’m not sure that referring to a group of people as stupid is conducive to persuading members of that group to consider alternatives.
I’ll say that, especially reading a Strib article about long term problems in the 3rd precinct, I can’t understand why anyone would support the same folks who have ignored police abuses for years. It seems absurd that people would continue voting for the same system that’s turned a blind eye towards years of abuse, but they’ve been convinced otherwise. Heaven forbid that those in power do what they promise.
I'm not sure I'm willing to mince words any longer. "Nice" talk does nothing for people who indulge in the definition of insanity. It's the time for cold, brutal honesty to combat the constant lies from the left and all their varied manifestations, especially when innocent people are being assaulted in the name of those lies. Let them instead demand a reason why "stupid" is the apt term for them and I will happily provide...AGAIN...not that it will do much good for too many of them.
But some have come to that truth already. Some, like Brandon Tatum and Candace Owens now understand that supporting those people who done nothing for so long was indeed stupid and see they were wrong about conservatism.
They want a conversation? Let's have it. But I'm not engaging on their terms. That way leads to the defeat of truth, because truth gets in the way of what they want us to hear. As you know, I'm not in the habit of simply calling people names. I prefer explaining why the name fits. Now it's their turn to explain why they call me racist, "brutalizer", homophobe, misogynist and provide evidence to back it up.
The left takes advantage of "nice" talk, because they're too interested in pushing their false notions as truth. "Nice" talk is self-censoring for their benefit, rather than speaking plainly and truthfully for the benefit of all. I'll leave Christian kindness in dealing with the left to better Christians than myself. We're certainly not debating any Christians at your blog or mine.
You say you can't understand why anyone would support the same folks who have ignored police abuses for years. The answer is crystal clear: They're stupid. Let them prove me wrong. I can handle it.
I get the desire to not mince words. But simply referring to an entire group of people as “stupid”, is exactly what I’m constantly on Dan about. Simply broad brushing an entire group of people as “stupid” is intellectually lazy when Dan does it, so why would it be ok for you? You can certainly be better than Dan.
Just because something doesn’t make sense, doesn’t mean that the people are automatically stupid.
“People sometimes ask if I have tried to convince black “leaders” to take a different view on racial issues. Of course not. I wouldn't spend my time trying to persuade the mafia to give up crime. Why should I spend time trying to convince race hustlers to give up victimhood?”
T Sowell
BVM
“Every racist white person that I ever encountered was a DEMOCRAT...”
Patricia Dickson
BVM
The difference is clear. First, because Dan's a buffoon for the plethora of reasons already submitted over the years. Secondly, because the front to which I refer has also proven the term apt by their continued support for Democrats. Those who vote Democrat are stupid for doing so. I'm not generalizing here. I want them all to understand this fact in no uncertain terms. Clarity is very important when pointing out dangerous or harmful behavior. Given Democratic policy of all kind, I see no better way to describe Dem voters.
There's another difference...learning one's support for a particular candidate was stupid, versus constantly supporting the greater of two evils. I may sometimes be the former. Dem voters are always the latter. That's stupidity.
Not gonna fly. If I’m not letting Dan get away with that crap, I’m going to be consistent.
Look Dan has different rules for everyone, I’m not playing that game.
Listen to Colin Powell. He ain't wrong.
Shame on the GOP.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/politics/colin-powell-donald-trump-protests-cnntv/index.html
Clearly because being a liberal black man who once worked for a GOP president makes someone right.
Listen to Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Larry Elder, and CJ Pearson, they ain’t wrong.
Of course some old white guy proclaimed that they “ain’t black” either.
This could be one of the stupidest comments of the thread.
What may be the stupidest thing about this comment is the assumption that underly it,
Is “ain’t wrong” a milquetoast, equivocal way of saying that he’s right?
OK. Then let me ask these questions:
---Do you think it's stupid to support that which consistently brings about negative consequences for you and most everyone else?
---Do you consider the Democrat Party to be consistent in bringing about negative consequences for you and most everyone else?
---If you answered yes to the above...or even just one or the other...how can those who do either not be stupid for supporting that which consistently brings about negative consequences for them and everyone else?
I'm not doing anything like what Dan does. I'm being quite specific about a specific action.
What Powell said...
"We have a Constitution. And we have to follow that Constitution. And the President has drifted away from it,"
"I think what we're seeing now, is (the most) massive protest movement I have ever seen in my life, I think it suggests the country is getting wise to this and we're not going to put up with it anymore,"
In contrast, he called out Republican lawmakers for largely staying silent on Trump's response last week to the national unrest.
"I watched the senators heading into the chamber the other day after all this broke, with the reporters saying, 'What do you have to say? What do they you to say?'" he said.
"They had nothing to say. They would not react."
Asked why it was so important to him that Trump not be reelected, Powell said that he thinks Trump has not been an effective president and that he lies "all the time."
"What we have to do now is reach out to the whole people, watch these demonstrations, watch these protests, and rather than curse them, embrace them to see what it is we have to do to get out of the situation that we find ourselves in now,"
"They're looking at these demonstrations. They see that these are demonstrations that are justified. And not to be criticized. They see that George, as the President called him, was murdered and the President comes out and says, 'Well, George is looking down from heaven and blessing what I'm doing.' How can you expect anybody to believe things like that?" Powell asked.
And at home in the US, Trump's former Defense Secretary, James Mattis, said in a blistering statement last week that Trump "does not even pretend to try" to unite the country and is instead engaged in a "deliberate effort" to divide the country, while lacking "mature leadership." And former White House chief of staff John Kelly said Friday that he agreed with Mattis' assessment and that he thinks there's an "awful big concern that the partisanship has gotten out of hand, the tribal thing has gotten out of hand."
Asked by Tapper if he agreed specifically with Mattis' comments, Powell doubled down on his criticism of Trump.
"You have to agree with it. I mean, look at what he has done to divide us," he said. "I agree with all of my former colleagues."
"I'm proud of what they're doing. I'm proud that they were willing to take the risk of speaking honesty and speaking truth to those who are not speaking truth," Powell said.
+++++++
That is what Powell said. But rather than disagree or agree with the substance of Powell's VERY important points, rather than agree with him about the threat this idiot con man presents, you opted to go on the attack against me.
Don't waste your time with these adolescent, Trump-style nonsense attacks. Deal with the SUBSTANCE of the negligence, division and corruption that people recognize Trump as perpetrating.
Listen to black people. ALL black people and NOT just the ones who agree with you or say things that ease your little snowflake white conscience.
Listen to King.
Listen to Powell.
Listen and just shut the hell up about matters of race where you are on the wrong side of history, reason and morality.
Dan,
The only reason you give a shit about what Powell is saying is because it’s a black “republican” who agrees with you.
Your insistence that you are the arbiter of which black voices are appropriate would be comical if it wasn’t so pathetic.
So, stop idiotic attempts to turn everyone who doesn’t agree with you, and who dares to push back against your unproven assumptions.
And STILL, you dodge the meat of what he said and, in so doing, continuing to disrespect and ignore black voices and defend a pervert conman racist.
We see what you all are collectively doing. So do the actual racists, KKK and white supremacist types. They send their thanks and we say, still, Listen to black voices. Stop disrespecting the black community by dodging their very serious points and defending the pervert racist they are calling out.
Craig... The only reason you give a shit about what Powell is saying is because it’s a black “republican” who agrees with you.
When you say things like this, it makes reasonable people wonder what is happening with modern conservatives. Like me or not, disagree with me or not, I have a long history of working alongside black people to work for change and for justice. My church has been part of a faith based direct action group (CLOUT) for nearly 30 years (they started it) and our member churches are, by design and hard work, black and white and from across the city. More conservative and more progressive churches are part and we've been working for justice for all those 30 years.
And so, when I quote a conservative Republican who is raising concerns about justice and about a deeply disturbed and unfit and corrupt president, I do so precisely because I am concerned about justice and because I do listen to black voices from across the political spectrum. Stupidly false claims like "You're only doing that because he agrees with you..." is just that: Stupidly false. I'm quoting him because he is right, because he speaks with authority about how perverted and dysfunctional this "conservative" president is (put into office BY conservatives, largely by older conservative white evangelicals much like yourself).
He is saying that conservative people need to speak up and out against this deviant... and yet, YOU are considering voting for this massively stupid conman (or so you say).
Listen to black people. Listen to Powell. Listen to King.
Get out of your safety zone and speak out against the racism and corruption of this deviant president.
And stop making stupidly false claims.
Dan,
It's clear that sometimes you get confused.
1. Disagreeing with you and your hunches, does not automatically mean that someone is making a specific counter argument.
2. Just be cause I point out your hypocrisy of your sudden conversion to revering Colin Powell, does not mean that I've dodged anything. I'll point out that Powell not voting for a GOP candidate is not news. Further, vague unspecific charges about "drifting from the constitution" really don't mean anything.
3. As is clear in this thread, I am actually doing the OPPOSITE of "disrespect and ignore"(ing) black voices. I am sharing and respecting a small percentage of the "black voices" I listen to. However, just because I don't share everything, everyone says, don't mean anything other than that I don't have time to continuously add comments to this post.
4. If you are going to make charges like this, "defend a pervert conman racist." you need to provide "hard data" to demonstrate that your charge is "objectively true". In the absence of any specifics, it's just more slander on your part.
5. "We see what you all are collectively doing."
5a. Shut the hell up with the royal we. It just makes you look like a pompous ass who's scared and has to hide behind an imaginary crowd.
5b. The only thing you "see" is me listening to, and repeating what "black voices" are saying. I'm literally doing exactly what you have demanded I do (the irony of some random white guy telling me what I must do in order to be "woke" is pretty damn strong), yet your continue to bitch, moan, and slander contrary to reality. Beyond that, it's just your prejudices, assumptions, and imagination talking bullshit.
6. "So do the actual racists, KKK and white supremacist types. They send their thanks", you do understand how ridiculous and hypocritical it makes you look when you demand "hard data" and "proof", when you won't provide any for the claims you make.
7. "Stop disrespecting the black community". Since I've never started, I have no reason to stop.
8. "dodging their very serious points", failing to respond to one quote from someone who's been politically opposed to republicans isn't dodging anything. Further, not blindly accepting everything that comes from those I disagree with engaging with, not dodging. Because if the intrusions of things like real life, I don't respond to everything every "black voice" says here. It's absurd to think I should. It's ridiculous to think that you are the arbiter of what "black voices" are important, and of what I respond to here.
9. "and defending the pervert racist they are calling out." Again, if you're going to make these sorts of claims, then you'll need to provide "hard data" and "proof".
"and defending the pervert racist they are calling out."
As you may have noticed, I've been primarily focusing on the local aspects of this because that's what I see the most of. Since we're told that the George Floyd killing is the catalyst for this current round of riots and protests, it seems reasonable for me to focus more on what I see with my own eyes.
Given that. Your above claim makes absolutely zero sense.
1. Trump bears absolutely zero responsibility for the "systemic racism" that's been present in MPLS city/Hennepin county government for decades.
2. Trump had absolutely zero input into, or control over the actions of the ex cops, the local government, the state government, the protesters, the rioters, the looters, or the opportunists.
3. The 3rd precinct has been a cesspool and a haven for problem cops for years. Not only that, but it's been known and joked about for years. Trump isn't the one who turned a blind eye to the known "systemic racism" and corruption in the MPLS 3rd precinct for years.
4. Virtually the entire city of MPLS, including the local government, hates Trump just as much as you do. Yet, you're trying to blame Trump for something he has no control over, and absolve those who do have responsibility.
So, at the risk of being repetitive, let's try to live in reality. Let's stop the slanderous, unsupported, false claims, and try to acknowledge that Trump isn't responsible for things that have been tolerated in MPLS for 40+ years.
You seem very interested in placing as much responsibility on Trump as possible, yet I haven't once seen you specifically condemn that city/county/and state government of MPLS/MN who have actually been responsible for the problems in the MPD. If I played your bullshit games, I'd be speculating about your support of actual "systemic racism".
"When you say things like this, it makes reasonable people wonder what is happening with modern conservatives."
What an absurd response. You aren't having a conversation with "modern conservatives". Further, my pointing out that the only time you I've ever seen you say anything positive about anyone remotely associated with the GOP, is when they join you on the Trump hating bandwagon. Powell isn't and never was a conservative, nor was he a republican. He was a professional military officer, and a very good one at that, serving his country under a republican president.
"Like me or not, disagree with me or not, I have a long history of working alongside black people to work for change and for justice.""
So what. This has nothing to do with the sentence that preceded it. Further, the fact that I have a long history of working "alongside black people" apparently doesn't count in your partisan mindset.
"My church has been part of a faith based direct action group (CLOUT) for nearly 30 years (they started it) and our member churches are, by design and hard work, black and white and from across the city. More conservative and more progressive churches are part and we've been working for justice for all those 30 years."
Following the example of Jesus, I try not to brag about what I, or my church, has done. In fact, when you've demanded that I do so, I've always deleted my comment because I don't like to give the impression that I'm bragging. But in general, I've employed "black folks", I've housed "black folks", I've been a part of groups that provide critical medical care to "black folks" and my church(es) have invested millions of dollars, countless hours, and tens of tons of food to "black folks". So, if you want to make this about comparing, go right ahead. Unfortunately for you, I don't obsess about stuff like that, I certainly don't like to brag about it.
"And so, when I quote a conservative Republican who is raising concerns about justice and about a deeply disturbed and unfit and corrupt president, I do so precisely because I am concerned about justice and because I do listen to black voices from across the political spectrum."
Yet, you never quote "black voices" that disagree with you regardless of where they are politically. I've already pointed out that Powell isn't a "conservative republican" and the vagueness and unspecific nature of his complaints.
"He is saying that conservative people need to speak up and out against this deviant... and yet, YOU are considering voting for this massively stupid conman (or so you say)."
That's your interpretation. Let me be very clear on one thing. IF I do vote for Trump, it will be for one reason, and one reason only. It will be 100% because of you and your monomaniacal hatred of Trump. I didn't vote for him in 2016, and my vote for or against him will likely not matter one bit. So, if I do vote for him, you can console yourself that it was all because of you.
"Listen to black people. Listen to Powell. Listen to King."
You keep repeating this absurd mantra as if you think it'll magically make me listen to "black people" more than I already am. I'm sorry if the evidence that I'm "listening to black people" somehow slipped past you, or that you are so blinded by prejudice and assumptions that you just won't see what's right in front of you.
"Get out of your safety zone and speak out against the racism and corruption of this deviant president."
In the absence of "hard data" that provides "proof" of your above claim, (as well as the multitude of other claims you lack proof of), it seems quite silly to say, "And stop making stupidly false claims.", while you're continually making "false claims". Of course, if you gave a rat's ass about "hard data" to back up your "stupidly false claims", you'd be left with the demonstrable fact that I HAVE been speaking out against Trump since before the 2016 election, but don't let little things like facts get in the way of some juicy slander,
So Pot, "stop making stupidly false claims".
“I do not support 'Black Lives Matter'.
Never have and never will.
Why?
Because they only care about the 0.001% of black lives that they can use to push their divisive political agenda.
The whole thing is disingenuous BS.
A catchy name isn't enough to dupe all of us.”
Zuby
BVMLTT
“The most popular racist term today... "White Privilege". Don't you dare tell me my skin color holds me back. Don't you dare tell me my skin color makes me a victim.”
Burgess Owens
BVMLTT
And again, the fake Christian will demand we listen to black voices, as if that hasn't been happening all along. The reality is that he doesn't care whether or not the black voices he finds so compelling can actually provide evidence to back up what they say. How long are we supposed to listen to black voices whose message does not reflect reality?
I must say, I haven't devoted any time in working alongside the poor. Aside from donations, my limited efforts have paid greater dividends than leftist attempts likely have. That is to say that a search of CLOUT info provides very little detail. I especially looked at their list of accomplishments, and there is no detail attached that I could access from their page. I'm guessing, lefties being who they are, there's a lot of chest thumping and self-congratulatory celebration for helping to implement that which does very little to address the root causes of problems in the minority communities. Lots of assigning blame, though, no doubt. In any case, my support for he who Dan likes to refer to in derogatory ways, has promoted the expansion of our economy that has resulted in the lowest unemployment numbers for the black community in the history of tracking such statistics.
If Dan can provide a site that provides the detail necessary to truly judge the effectiveness of his efforts, that would be nice. But saying one is devoted to helping when no real change has resulted from those efforts does little to impress, and worse, it does little to enhance the lives of those purported to be the object of said efforts.
In that vein, I'm still looking for someone who cries about "systemic" racism to point to an institution or government policy that proves there exists a "system" of racist intent. That would be good.
All in all, it's tiring to listen to the black voices Dan finds so compelling only to hear the same old whines without evidence and data to back it up. The voices to which Craig and I listen are positive when vocalized by average citizens, and chock full of data and evidence when it's the brilliant voices of those like Sowell, Williams, Owens, Tatum, Steele, Elder, Thomas and the like.
And here's the thing that is true of conservative black voices: Their determination to deal only in facts and evidence reveals what is obvious for those who care to honestly look, which is that the real solution to the problems of the black community in America are true of everyone regardless of race. Sowell points to parallel white communities in the UK who have the same whines while engaging in the same self-destructive habits and choices. It's not a racist thing. It's a behavioral thing.
https://winteryknight.com/2020/06/08/economist-asks-whether-policies-of-white-liberals-will-protect-blacks-from-crime-2/
While I'm quite sure that it eases your white guilt to find a handful of black people saying things you can agree with, can you admit the reality that the vast majority of black people will tell you that they experience racism regularly?
That they think the evidence is clear that Trump is a racist?
That they think Trump is making things worse for black people?
That you are quoting the outliers in black voices and ignoring the experiences of the mainstream of black voices?
I'm fine with you quoting these handful of outliers who say things that ease your conscience, but can you admit that they ARE the outliers?
And that you really should be listening to ALL black voices, especially the majority, when they tell you their real world experiences with the oppression of racism?
Do you, when you hear "Nine out of ten doctors will tell you not to smoke, as it will increase your odds of dying young..." think, "I think it is wisest to listen to that one outlier..."?
“I was just looking online today like most of you and what did I see? A bunch of Democrat politicians kneeling down, of which I have nothing to say about that because I am not an American, however, they were all having around their necks this colorful fabric which I’m sure they put around their necks as some kind of mark or show of unity or solidarity with black people,” Ekeocha said. “So, in other words, they put in for the Kente material or this colorful fabric they had around their necks as some kind of placating sign or symbol to show that they are not racist and they are together with black people.”
“Excuse me, dear Democrats, in your tokenism, you didn’t wait to find out that this thing that you’re hanging around your neck is not just some African uniform, it’s actually the Kente material,” Ekeocha continued. “The Kente belongs to the Ghanaian people, mainly the Ashanti Tribe. Excuse me, Democrats. Don’t treat Africans like we’re children. These fabrics and these colorful things that we have within our culture and tradition, they all mean something to us. I know you look at us and you say, ‘oh Africans are so cute in all your colorful dresses.’”
“Well, some of those dresses and patterns and colors and fabrics actually do mean something to us,” Ekeocha added. “Some of them belong to ancient tribes and mean something to them. So why are you using it your own show of non-racism or your own show of virtue? Why are you using the Kente material to signal your virtue? Stop it. We are not children. Africans are not children. And leave our tradition and our culture to us and if you don’t know much about it, ask somebody. I’m sure there would have been something else you could have done to show your solidarity with black people instead of taking the Kente material and making a little show of it.”
Obianuju Ekeocha
BVMLTT
A black voice you’ve probably never heard, but should be listening to.
I saw pics of the Dems and immediately saw it for what it was...lefties exploiting once again. They bitched about Trump and a photo op, but what was this? A Ghanaian citizenship ceremony? Rank pandering is what it is, of the type the usual suspects here likely find just dandy. When one sees this type of flagrant demonstration, how can one not think those who vote for them are stupid?
re: Wearing Kente cloth stoles...
"The Democrats wore Kente cloth stoles handed out by the Congressional Black Caucus and knelt on the floor of the U.S. Capitol Visitors Center for 8 minutes and 46 seconds — the time former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin’s knee was on the neck of George Floyd — before a press conference announcing the proposed "Justice in Policing Act."
Rep. Karen Bass, the chairwoman of the Congressional Black Caucus, defended the clothing choice to MSNBC.
“The significance of the Kente cloth is our African heritage, and for those of you without that heritage who are acting in solidarity,” Bass said at the news conference. “That is the significance of the Kente cloth. Our origins and respecting our past.”
https://www.today.com/style/democrats-criticized-wearing-kente-cloth-stoles-honor-george-floyd-t183681
======
No disrespect was intended. The white Democrats wore the stoles handed to them by black people to honor their heritage. The intent was to honor, not virtue signal. They were LISTENING TO BLACK VOICES.
You should try it some time, and not just those who ease your little white conscience by saying things you can agree with.
Kente cloth has become widely used in the United States after rising to popularity in the 1960s during the Civil Rights Movement and is part of the black diaspora. Modern-day college graduates will recognize the stoles worn by Congressmen and women on Monday as similar to those of matriculating students who don them to pay homage to their history. Many church pastors also wear Kente stoles as a way to "show a spiritual connection between them and (their) ancestors,” according to a 2012 study.
“Not a huge fan of the Kente cloth, but it was a show of solidarity from more seasoned folks, so I get it,” April Reign, the creator of the hashtag #OscarsSoWhite, tweeted. “I just hope we don't miss what happened after the performative part, which is that legislation is being introduced. Keep this same energy for the Rand Pauls who will vote No.”
https://www.today.com/style/democrats-criticized-wearing-kente-cloth-stoles-honor-george-floyd-t183681
"While I'm quite sure that it eases your white guilt to find a handful of black people saying things you can agree with, can you admit the reality that the vast majority of black people will tell you that they experience racism regularly?"
It has absolutely nothing do do with my "white guilt", to find "black people" who are thinking for themselves, and who are breaking free from the "liberal plantation" (their term not mine). I celebrate these voices of people who are willing to speak their minds regardless of the racist attacks they get from those on the left. (House Nigger, and Uncle Tom are nice compared to the threats of physical violence and death.). Yet, my pointing out these free thinking, independent, "black folks" in no way denies, or diminishes those who experience, or believe that they experience racism regularly. Those "black folks" have plenty of platforms to tell their stories, the "black folks" I've been highlighting, don't have the same platform. Are you really suggesting that some "black folks" stories should be hidden or diminished, while others should be boosted?
"That they think the evidence is clear that Trump is a racist?"
I, unlike you, am absolutely unqualified to comment on what people I've never met think. Given that reality, it would be irresponsible of me to do so. I would argue that aggregating anonymous peoples opinions on any subject doesn't automatically make those aggregated opinions fact.
"That they think Trump is making things worse for black people?"
See above. Although, the black unemployment rate was historically low prior to Covid, so it's possible that the narrative doesn't lie up with some of the facts that we have data for. To bring it back to the topic, which is what's happening locally. How is it reasonable or possible to hold Trump responsible for a local city government's actions in enabling, supporting, protecting, and failing to reform a police department and other city policies that are claimed to be "institutionally racist"? IF you can somehow argue that it's reasonable to hold Trump responsible for things that pre date his presidency by 40 years, and that aren't in the purview of the responsibilities of the executive branch, how is it possible to not hold P-BO more responsible given he didn't address these issues in his 2 terms?
"That you are quoting the outliers in black voices and ignoring the experiences of the mainstream of black voices?
That I'm quoting a small but growing minority in the "black community", is simply your way to dismiss and devalue those "black voices" saying things that don't fit the narrative you're committed to believing. Just because that are a "minority", doesn't mean that they're wrong. Arguing that they are wrong, because the are a "minority" is simply another face of your favorite logical fallacy. I do appreciate how you're revealing your true colors.
"I'm fine with you quoting these handful of outliers who say things that ease your conscience, but can you admit that they ARE the outliers?"
Do you eve realize the outright hubris it takes for you to tell me that you're "fine" with me quoting "black voices" as long as I play by the rules you pull out of your ass. As if you have any authority at all. But please tell the "black voices" that your "fine" with them as long as they admit "that they're outliers". What other people do you presume to tell what they can do?
"And that you really should be listening to ALL black voices, especially the majority, when they tell you their real world experiences with the oppression of racism?"
1. Again, with the hubris and condescending presumption.
2. You do realize that the above statement is based ENTIRELY on your unproven assumptions and prejudices, and NOT on any actual evidence.
3. The very notion of listening to "ALL black voices" is stupid and absurd on it's face, and if you clam that you do you simply lying.
4. While I don't listen to "ALL black voices", because it's a stupid and impossible standard. I do listen to multiple "black voices" who represent multiple perspective.
5. Do you realize the hubris entailed in some random white guy telling me what I "should be doing" regarding the subject of anything regarding "black voices"?
"Do you, when you hear "Nine out of ten doctors will tell you not to smoke, as it will increase your odds of dying young..." think, "I think it is wisest to listen to that one outlier..."?"
This is simple dressing up your favorite logical fallacy in different clothes. But, since I've answered the rest of your idiotic questions, I'll answer this one.
There are a couple of answers.
1. If I had a personal relationship with, a high degree of trust in, and if he/she had compelling science based evidence to support him/her, then yes. It's entirely possible that I'd listen to one doctor (and their evidence) that I know and trust, as opposed to 9 that I don't know and don't have the same level of trust in.
2. If I simply listened to Dr's opinions without looking at the evidence, I'd be an idiot. So, I'd make my decision based on the evidence, not simply the number of Drs.
3. It would depend on the qualifications and specialties of the Drs. I'd be less likely to take the opinion of a Dr of Psychiatry, a Dr of Podiatry, or a Dr od Music Education regarding the dangers of smoking, than a Dr of Oncology.
4, Appealing to numbers is a logical fallacy that I try not to engage in, you should as well.
5. What if those 9 doctors had been paid to state their opinions in a certain way.
6. Blindly accepting anything based on the word of people that one doesn't know seems like a bad way to operate in general.
There, answers to your ridiculous, presumptuous, questions grounded in your hubris.
I will say that it'd be easier to listen to more "black voices" if all y'all white liberals would shut the hell up and stop telling everyone what they "should" do and who they "should" listen to.
How many unarmed black men were killed by police in 2019?
What is the largest killer of black children in the US?
Dan,
Is it OK with you if an African woman expresses her displeasure with the US DFL leadership for culturally appropriating kente cloth for a photo op? Is ot OK with you if I quote her? Is it ok with you if those who disagree with her say the following?
"Another stupid African"
"Why don't you STFU.
Pelosi, SChumer et al are making a gesture to African-Americans. Not to Africans living in America.
Nobody cares what Kente cloth means to Africans. Only what it means to (native born) African-Americans. So shut up because it's not about you!"
Do I have permission to post that?
At some point in this discussion, shouldn't we allow things like data into the conversation? Even if the data might not 100% support people's feelings? Should me be making public policy if the existing data doesn't support the policy?"
"According to leftist rhetoric, whites pose a severe, if not mortal, threat to blacks. Mac Donald says that may have once been true, but it is no longer so today. To make her case, she uses the latest Bureau of Justice Statistics 2018 survey of criminal victimization. Mac Donald writes: “According to the study, there were 593,598 interracial violent victimizations (excluding homicide) between blacks and whites last year, including white-on-black and black-on-white attacks. Blacks committed 537,204 of those interracial felonies, or 90 percent, and whites committed 56,394 of them, or less than 10 percent. That ratio is becoming more skewed, despite the Democratic claim of Trump-inspired white violence. In 2012-13, blacks committed 85 percent of all interracial victimizations between blacks and whites; whites committed 15 percent. From 2015 to 2018, the total number of white victims and the incidence of white victimization have grown as well.”
There are other stark figures not talked about often. According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting for 2018, of the homicide victims for whom race was known, 53.3% were black, 43.8% were white and 2.8% were of other races. In cases where the race of the offender was known, 54.9% were black, 42.4% were white, and 2.7% were of other races."
"Malcolm X said: “The worst enemy that the Negro have is this white man that runs around here drooling at the mouth professing to love Negros and calling himself a liberal, and it is following these white liberals that has perpetuated problems that Negros have. If the Negro wasn’t taken, tricked or deceived by the white liberal, then Negros would get together and solve our own problems. I only cite these things to show you that in America, the history of the white liberal has been nothing but a series of trickery designed to make Negros think that the white liberal was going to solve our problems. Our problems will never be solved by the white man.”"
The above is a twofer. It's a quote on a "black voice" quoting another "black voice".
https://winteryknight.com/2020/06/08/economist-asks-whether-policies-of-white-liberals-will-protect-blacks-from-crime-2/
FYI, WK actually IS a "black voice", so it's a trifecta!
I gave the link to provide context, which also contains the link to the piece that WK is quoting for additional context.
Thank you for invalidating the concern of those who were offended by the Kente cloth.
Clearly you and the CBC have a much more accurate view of the importance of Kente cloth than someone from Africa.
It has absolutely nothing do do with my "white guilt", to find "black people" who are thinking for themselves
And there it is. Those black people who agree with Craig are the ones who are thinking for themselves. All others are idiots and evil.
Listen to black people. ALL black people.
Listen to King.
Listen to Gen Powell.
Or, at the very least, LISTEN TO YOURSELF and recognize how you are furthering the cause of racism and ignoring the voices of the majority of black people (i.e., the ones who dare disagree with you and your white priviilege).
Craig... Are you really suggesting that some "black folks" stories should be hidden or diminished, while others should be boosted?
No, that is literally NOT what I'm saying. Look at my words and understand them. Listen to ALL BLACK VOICES.
The problem is you are denying the reality of the vast majority of black people and silencing the majority opinion on your blog. By offering ONLY the minority opinion that agrees with conservative white polices, you are hiding/blocking/denying the majority opinion and voice.
Stop doing that.
https://trib.com/opinion/columns/williams-some-facts-worth-knowing/article_441b0ac3-56cd-5a2f-8ea9-5bb18ccdc49e.html
This may be off topic, but it's my blog so I don't care what you think.
It is, of course listening to a "black voice" and a "black voice" who brings "data" to the party.
It's amazing how nothing gets a "black voice" ignored like bringing data that doesn't match the official narrative into the discussion.
"And there it is. Those black people who agree with Craig are the ones who are thinking for themselves. All others are idiots and evil."
I'm simply repeating what I hear from "black people" who don't go along with the herd. Their words, not mine.
"Listen to black people. ALL black people." An absurd and stupid commandment. I can guarantee with 100% certainty that you don't do it, therefore why command me to do something that you don't and that is impossible.
"Listen to King." Done.
"Listen to Gen Powell." Done.
What you really mean is "Listen to the liberal white guy whose demanding that you do things he doesn't do.".
"Or, at the very least, LISTEN TO YOURSELF and recognize how you are furthering the cause of racism and ignoring the voices of the majority of black people (i.e., the ones who dare disagree with you and your white priviilege)."
If you are going to keep making these sorts of false claims, prove them. If you can't prove them, then stop and apologize.
"No, that is literally NOT what I'm saying. Look at my words and understand them. Listen to ALL BLACK VOICES."
Again, with the demand that I do the impossible. You don't, yet you demand that I do.
"The problem is you are denying the reality of the vast majority of black people and silencing the majority opinion on your blog."
The problem is that you are making up increasingly fanciful lies, and failing to prove the claims you are making. Either stop with the false claims and apologize, or prove the claims you are making.
"By offering ONLY the minority opinion that agrees with conservative white polices, you are hiding/blocking/denying the majority opinion and voice."
Yet, I'm not doing that. I've prioritized quoting "black voices" that you probably haven't heard as a public service to help you listen to MORE "black voices". It's interesting that you demean those I've offered as only regurgitating "white" policies. Again, prove you claim and apologize, or stop making claims you can't prove.
"Stop doing that."
Way back when, in one of my first few blog posts, I was clear that my goals for this blog were minimal. I wasn't seeking a huge readership, and honestly wasn't that concerned if I had zero readership. To be charitable, I might have 25 people who stumble across my blog in any given week, and move on without commenting. To suggest that my blog is in any way preventing, silencing, or limiting "black voices" of any stripe is patently absurd. Your obsession with trying to take one post and comment thread as representative of the entire blog is stupid. Your obsession with commanding me that which is impossible , looks more like mental illness than anything else.
The objective reality is that you have absolutely no idea what voices I listen to, how often I listen to them, and how much influence they have over me. Nor do you have the first damn clue what I'm doing.
So, how about you and your white liberal, revel in white guilt tribe shut the hell up and get out of the way of the "black voices' you pretend are so important.
Interestingly enough, the only side of my family that potentially has any actual slave owing to apologize for is the Cherokee side. But I'm not seeing any apologies from you for oppressing my ancestors.
I know it's hard when people you thought you had shoved in your boxes based on your prejudices, assumptions, and bias, don't quite fit those boxes. Most people would respond by rethinking those biases, prejudices, and assumptions, but not you.
Danny,
I know you're all full of joy at the cultural appropriation by your leadership for their solemn 8 minute vigil to honor George Floyd, and that you'll defend their right to borrow Ghanan culture for their own benefit. Further, you'll sit in silence as Africans who are offended are shamed and marginalized.
But enough of the obvious.
Have you seen the video angle of the woman behind Pelosi who's wobbling in silent, reverence for the martyred Mr Floyd, all while trying to hide the fact that she's about to fall on her ass because she can't stop looking at her smart phone.
how cynical can you get.
Yeah, it's pretty goofy for a progressive asshat to suggest that Black Caucus members are better qualified to speak on the appropriate use of Kente cloth than actual Africans. As one descended from Polish blood line, I would not think I knew better about Polish culture than someone from Poland. "African-Americans" are likely poor sources for info on such things, especially by comparison to actual Africans.
But hey! It's all about lefties, ain' it, and their posturing for the cameras in "memorial" to some dude who died giving the wrong cop a hard time.
All the while, David Dorn won't get anywhere near the concern from those who weep so hard for Floyd. There's something horribly wrong with that.
“The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals' expansion of the welfare state. Most black children grew up in homes with two parents during all that time but most grow up with only one parent today.”
Thomas Sowell
BVMLTT
“George Floyd got a 3 hour long televised funeral today. Had 3 other funerals previous to this one. My brother who died unexpectedly 8 weeks ago, who loved his family, worked hard at his job, had no arrest record, never did drugs, got zero. I have had enough.”
This probably doesn’t belong here, so it might get moved.
This isn’t a black voice, but as someone who’s lost 4 parents and a sibling. I definitely understand the emotional closure and social importance of a funeral. I understand that you can do the service later, but I’m not sure if it’s the same.
Anyway, I can definitely understand the attitude expressed here, and I can see that dismissing her as being insensitive would be inappropriate. The Covid double standard is getting frustrating.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/sad-way-to-think-of-yourself-shelby-steele-decries-black-victimhood-response-to-floyd-death
“Police brutality happens in Democrat led cities. Who they blame? Republicans.
Voter suppression and election issues happen in Democrat led cities. Who they blame? Republicans.
I’m tired of watching Democrats lie straight in the faces of black people.”
CJ P
BVMLTT
“Have we reached the ultimate stage of absurdity where some people are held responsible for things that happened before they were born, while other people are not held responsible for what they themselves are doing today?”
TS
BVMLTT
“Injustice begins not with an act, but an attitude. Each of us carries within us the congenital seed from which injustice is borne and bears fruit—sin. Injustice is rooted out of a society only as you and I root out the sin that resides in our own hearts (see Colossians 3:5-11).”
Darrell Harrison
BVMLTT
“I've been Black 61 years in America. I can tell you that racism is NOT a significant impediment to Black progress. Negative pathologies within Black American culture, such as high out-of-wedlock birthrates, high father absence, higher crime rates, etc., are bigger impediments!”
Tyehimba Jahsi
BVMLTT
Post a Comment