https://www.newsweek.com/democrats-voting-rights-agenda-isnt-us-its-them-opinion-1671250
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StIUHKAVcRI
https://winteryknight.com/2022/01/31/racist-joe-biden-filibustered-black-female-court-of-appeals-nominee-janice-rogers-brown/
51 comments:
Your author said... "The Democrats' agenda, specifically this new voting rights bill, is not actually about helping us Black voters or even American public. It's about helping the Democratic Party establish and maintain political power."
And I get that this is his opinion. And there's certainly a point to be made that the Democrats haven't always listened as well as they should to black voices. BUT we must be clear that neither has the GOP and that the vast majority of black people think that the GOP is a much worse option for them.
You understand that, right?
Also, while this one black man thinks that, for the Democrats, the voting rights defense push is not about helping black voters, but that's one black man's opinion.
But Cliff Albright and LaTosha Brown, who started Black Voters Matter, would disagree and WANT the Democrats to push voting rights efforts.
https://blackvotersmatterfund.org/our-purpose/
And the folks at BLM WANT the Democrats to push voting rights efforts.
https://blackvotersmatterfund.org/our-purpose/
Many (all??) in Dr King's family WANT the Democrats to defend voting rights.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/martin-luther-king-jrs-family-leads-march-urging/story?id=82300731
In fact, the majority of the nation, the majority of Latinos and a large majority of black people WANT the Democrats to defend voting rights. And they want the GOP to do so, as well, but if they're not going to, they want the GOP to get the hell out of the way.
"More than two-thirds of voters support the For the People Act, also known as HR 1/S 1 (68% support/25% oppose/8% undecided), with 50% strongly supporting the legislation. Four out of five Black voters support it(81% support), along with 7 out of 10 Latinovoters(71%), and nearly two-thirds of white voters doas well (64%)."
https://votingrightslab.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Lake-Research-Partners-Federal-Polling-Memo-April-2021.pdf
"On voting rights specifically, there’s a clear racial divide on its importance. According to a July report from Pew, Black (77 percent), Hispanic (63 percent) and Asian Americans (66 percent) were all far more likely than white Americans (51 percent) to label voting a fundamental right rather than a privilege with responsibilities. In June, a separate Morning Consult/Politico poll found that Black Americans (64 percent) were significantly more likely than Hispanic and white Americans (47 percent each) to think restricting voting access was a major threat to American democracy."
etc.
So, we can listen to one black man or we can listen to the large majority of black and Latino folks.
Your post is titled "Listen to Black Voices," and I encourage that. But "Listen to A SINGLE Black Voice..."? Much less compelling.
And speaking of listening to black voices and based on your extremely emotional response to my simple question the other day, I guess I'm safe in assuming you are NOT watching the ongoing story of Emmett Till being showed on TV tonight?
If you only listen to black voices that the KKK is happy to listen to, we'll never learn nothing from young Mr Till, his brave mother and defenders, and the liars like the white woman who got Emmett Till brutalized and assassinated.
We're going to have to change our label for these people. From now one, it should be "Listen to Intelligent Black People". Those who continue to believe the Dems "have their back" (that Sleepy Joe...he's funny!) are not among them.
Wait a minute. This black voice agrees with white conservative voices, ergo, he cannot be a true black voice! Leastways that's the claim of racist Demokrats and their laces.
"You understand that, right?"
Yes, I understand that you believe this to be true. I understand that you believe that your biased, partisan, projections about what might possibly happen in the future seem True to you. I also understand that intelligent, educated, black folk, might not agree with your predictions, and that it's possible that they are intelligent enough to make their own decisions. It's almost like you're making his point for him. He clearly can't know what Dan knows, because if he did, he'd get back in line with all the rest of the black folk.
Ahhhhh, the opinion polls as facts trope. Boring. How many of those polled are conversant with the actual content of either bill? How many are answering the way they did because they're just parroting the DFL talking points.
"When you think about it strategically, keeping Black Americans in the Dem fold by "committing to prevent genocide and protect the right to vote" is a ow cost neat trick- because those are UTTERLY unreal risks, and 'opposing' them lets pols largely avoid helping the hood, HCBU's etc."
Will Rielly
"In 2020 a record number of voters turned out in the face of a pandemic, and election officials made sure they could vote and have their votes counted"
Jen Psaki
If 2020 (as you and others have claimed) was the most secure election in history, with the highest turnout in history, what exactly do we gain by federalizing elections?
The problem is that folks like you don't listen to black voices like his, but folks like us are bombarded with black voices that parrot the DFL talking points.
Speaking of BLM, what happened to the 10 billion that they got donated in 2020? How many victims of police violence have they helped? How many destroyed neighborhoods have they rebuilt? Have they even made an attempt to give an accounting for the 10 billion?
And the fictionalized Emmett Till trope makes a return along with the KKK trope.
Oh, that Dan! He's on again with the polling of 1 or 2000 people and believing that settles things! He's a stitch.
Listen to black voices - ALL black voices, not the few in the minority who tickle your white conservative ears.
“Let the message go out: You cannot honor Martin Luther King and work to dismantle his legacy at the same time,” Warnock said Wednesday night, two days after King’s holiday, when virtually every senator of every political stripe produced an obligatory tribute to the slain civil rights leader.
“I will not sit quietly while some make Dr. King the victim of identity theft.”
https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-sit-quietly-3-black-130839357.html
Craig, the reality is that the majority of black people don't trust the GOP more than they don't trust the Democrats. You have NO DATA to suggest otherwise. You can keep denying poll after poll after poll after poll that supports this reality, but what you CAN'T do is present ANY polls OR data that says that the majority of black people think that the GOP is not representing their interests.
Can you recognize THAT reality?
Also, about your nonsensical, ridiculous continued suggestion that saying "black folk" is somehow demeaning or racist, bullshit. Do you not understand that this is a nonsense claim with no support for it?
Are you familiar with Du Bois seminal, "The Souls of Black Folk..."?
https://www.college.columbia.edu/core/content/souls-black-folk/context
Are you not aware that saying "black folk" and "white folk" and "Latino folk," etc, is a common phrase in the real world, including being used by black folk?
"In 1967, he lamented in Why We Can’t Wait that white Americans chose to believe that U.S. society was a level playing field that allowed for all races to reach middle-class status and racial harmony. Such belief, he asserted, was not only a fantasy of “self-deception and comfortable vanity,” but also undermined their commitment to justice for Black folk."
https://www.aaihs.org/martin-luther-king-jr-and-the-tradition-of-radical-blackness/
or...
"What should Black folk do with the word coon?"
https://theundefeated.com/features/what-should-black-folk-do-with-the-word-coon/
or...
"The word is being policed because black folks did not have a choice in the matter at a certain time when it was used to their disadvantage, to abuse and to inscribe and reinforce the sense of black people as inferior by white people...
"That the word survives is an act of redemption by black folk. The word survives on the conditions that black folks have inscribed for it and nobody else can take that. And it becomes violent when other people try to take it and use it.""
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-53749800
And I guess you know I could go on and on (or maybe you don't, you tell me if you're not familiar with how common the phrase is, including amongst black people). I wonder: What is it in your troubled soul that has a problem with the word "folk" when referring to people, as it is a perfectly fine word with no racist connotations? Are you not aware of that?
Listen...
The historic, unprecedented walkout came over a vote on the academic theory that state education officials and Republican lawmakers acknowledge is not even taught in Mississippi. Republicans hold supermajority control of the Senate, meaning they can pass any bill without a single Democratic vote.
“We walked out as a means to show a visible protest to these proceedings,” state Sen. John Horhn, D-Jackson, said of the unprecedented action.
“We felt like it was a bill that was not deserving of our vote,” said Sen. Derrick Simmons, D-Greenville. “We have so many issues in the state that need to be addressed. We did not need to spend time on this."
https://mississippitoday.org/2022/01/21/every-black-mississippi-senator-walked-out-as-white-colleagues-voted-to-ban-critical-race-theory/
"Listen to black voices - ALL black voices, not the few in the minority who tickle your white conservative ears."
The problem is that you are assuming that I don't listen to a wide variety of black voices across a broad spectrum of viewpoints. Given the number of times I've quoted black voices that I don't agree with, this should be obvious. But I've learned that something being obvious won't stop you from clinging to your narrative.
"You have NO DATA to suggest otherwise."
I just posted a poll that found that Biden's support in both the Hispanic and black demographics was dropping significantly.
The fact that you are using opinion polls as the basis to draw conclusions as if those conclusions were fact is the problem here.
"Do you not understand that this is a nonsense claim with no support for it?"
Given the number of claims you make, but can't support, the above is amusing. It's also amusing that you choose to interpret my opinion as a claim of fact. Are you suggesting that I can't express my opinion?
"What should Black folk do with the word coon?"
Based on what I see from many of the black voices I follow on social media, the answer is that the word "coon" (along with house nigger, and a few other terms) should be frequently, and liberally be used to refer to any black voice that doesn't toe the DFL party line.
It's interesting that you think that you have free reign to use a term just because blacks use it to describe themselves. What's next, you calling black folk "niggas"?
No one is objecting to the word folks. Because, why would they? Why are you reading racism or something into that? As far as I know it's not a word that's been associated in any way with racism like those other words have.
It sounds like you're deciding based on nothing at all that this is a demeaning word somehow. Why?
Craig... "It's interesting that you think that you have free reign to use a term just because blacks use it to describe themselves"
It's interesting that you think I should not use ANY terms to refer to black people because maybe YOU might randomly find it offensive? Is the term black people not acceptable? How about black citizens? How about the black people on that survey? What terms are you gonna make up out of thin air should be considered offensive? Do you realize how ridiculous this is?
""Black voices, "Black creators", "Black businesses", I never understood what that meant or why it was important. I'm not a "Black thinker", my skin color doesn't dictate my thoughts. IF you think skin pigment dictates one's thoughts, perhaps YOU need "implicit bias training". It's remarkable how much the progressive types will project their own prejudices&stereotypes onto others who disagree with them, while claiming they're "speaking for the oppressed", oh how convenient it must be for YOU to ALWAYS be right no matter what you say or believe."
Kyle J. Maxwell
"Because, why would they?"
I'm sorry, can you provide the quote where I said that people were objecting to the word "folks"?
"Why are you reading racism or something into that?"
Not so much racism, and paternalistic condescension.
"As far as I know it's not a word that's been associated in any way with racism like those other words have."
So?
"It sounds like you're deciding based on nothing at all that this is a demeaning word somehow. Why?"
As I said, more of a paternalistic condescension in my opinion.
"It's interesting that you think I should not use ANY terms to refer to black people because maybe YOU might randomly find it offensive?"
Again, where is the quote of me saying this?
"Is the term black people not acceptable? How about black citizens? How about the black people on that survey? What terms are you gonna make up out of thin air should be considered offensive? Do you realize how ridiculous this is?"
The problem with the ridiculous line of "questions" is that it doesn't relate to anything I said. I was specifically referring you your use of the term "Black folk", in a way that sounds paternalistic and condescending. What's interesting is that you moved the goal post (slightly) by basing your defense on the word "folks".
But it's an excellent example of you deciding to go on the attack about something that has little to no relationship to the original post.
Craig... "I'm not a "Black thinker", my skin color doesn't dictate my thoughts."
When we're talking about the group of potential black voters out there, then I am talking about black folk. Black people. Black citizens. I'm not talking about purple people or white people or some other category. The only people people out there who are black citizens ARE black people. There's nothing wrong with noting when you are speaking about black people. And there remains nothing wrong with the term black folks.
Craig... "more of a paternalistic condescension in my opinion."
Based upon WHAT? Is referring to black people also condescending?? What the hell?
What are you objecting to? Because YOU happen to think that black folk or black people or black citizens is condescending? Or just that YOU personally think that black folk is condescending, but black people is OK? This is a whim of your own and not based on anything substantial or real.
Of all the problems facing black folk in the world, that you are landing on this imaginary offense is astounding. Bizarre.
"What terms are you gonna make up out of thin air should be considered offensive?"
Asks the guy who got the vapors over my appropriate use of the terms "whore" and "slut" to describe two women who traded sex for money and claimed to have had sex with a man they knew was married.
Keep in mind Dan has appropriated sole authority for dictating what is reality, reasonable, rational and what words are offensive.
Interesting that you chose to take my attributed quote from an actual black person, and use it for your own purposes.
"Based upon WHAT?"
Your previous actions and statements.
"Is referring to black people also condescending??"
It could be, but it doesn't appear as paternalistic and condescending as "black folk".
"What the hell?"
I'm expressing my opinion, or will you not allow that here?
"What are you objecting to?"
Absolutely nothing, if you are ok sounding paternalistic and condescending, who am I to tell you you can't?
"Because YOU happen to think that black folk or black people or black citizens is condescending?"
No.
"Or just that YOU personally think that black folk is condescending, but black people is OK?"
No, i hold the opinion that you sound paternalistic and condescending when you use the term "black folk". I'm expressing my opinion, not making an objective claim of fact. I was under the impression that it was ok to have opinions, and that I had the freedom to express my opinions at my blog? Am I wrong?
"Of all the problems facing black folk in the world, that you are landing on this imaginary offense is astounding. Bizarre."
I see all sorts of folk spouting all sorts of imaginary offenses. I'm glad I'm not doing anything except expressing my personal opinion about your seeming paternalistic, condescending tone when referring to black "folk". The fact that you can't understand that I'm expressing my opinion about you, not abut black people in general, is a bit concerning to me. It's almost like you're projecting or something.
But, if bitching about me expressing my opinion makes you feel good, then who am I to stop you?
Art,
It's almost like Dan is trying to impose his opinions about what is improper on others or something.
It occurs to me the best response would have been Dan's own, "Don't you realize how you sound?" Didn't think of it at the time.
Craig... " it doesn't appear as paternalistic and condescending as "black folk"."
It doesn't appear paternalistic or condescending TO WHOM? Are you willing to clarify that, as far as you know, no one in the history of the world has suggested the word "folk" is paternalistic and condescending, NOR the use of the term "black folk" to refer to, you know, black folk, people, citizens is paternalistic and condescending?
And the question remains: WHY? WHY is it, in your sole opinion, "paternalistic and condescending..."? What about it makes it so? Is it just a bugaboo that you invented out of your own mind and not based on anything but a whim you have that is entirely baseless and irrational? If so, that's fine, no problem. We all have things that we don't like just based on a whim and nothing at all remotely rational. But if so, just admit it and let it go.
Craig... " I'm not doing anything except expressing my personal opinion about your seeming paternalistic, condescending tone when referring to black "folk". The fact that you can't understand that I'm expressing my opinion about you, not abut black people in general"
But that opinion is entirely baseless and irrational and with no foundation in reality. Now, if that's just how you roll, that's fine. Again, we're all sometimes irrational and baseless in feelings and emotions we have. But just be clear about it. There is no "SEEMING" paternalistic or condescending in MY tone, just your interpretation. There is no real world basis for anyone to think that, simply based upon the use of the term "black folk," which is a perfectly normal pedestrian phrase completely unhinged from condescension or paternalism.
Just admit it and move on. Lord have mercy! (Or is that also racist?)
Listen to the outrage of many black Americans in response to McConnell's latest gaffe...
“Being Black doesn’t make you less of an American, no matter what this craven man thinks,” Charles Booker, a Democrat running against Sen. Rand Paul (R) for Paul’s Kentucky seat, tweeted.
“Collin Powell was a real American,” tweeted an account named “Republicans against Trumpism,” attaching an image of the late general, who was Black. “[McConnell], apologize now!” the account demanded.
“Hey [McConnell], for your information, I’m also an American,” tweeted Democratic National Committee Chairman Jaime Harrison, a Black man.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/21/i-am-american-black-americans-use-social-media-respond-mcconnells-comments-voting/
"It doesn't appear paternalistic or condescending TO WHOM?"
To me. I'm writing about my opinions, on my blog, I'm sorry the concept of me expressing my opinions is so difficult to grasp.
"Are you willing to clarify that, as far as you know, no one in the history of the world has suggested the word "folk" is paternalistic and condescending, NOR the use of the term "black folk" to refer to, you know, black folk, people, citizens is paternalistic and condescending?"
No, because I don't care. What I am doing is expressing my opinions about how you talk about black folk.
"And the question remains: WHY? WHY is it, in your sole opinion, "paternalistic and condescending..."?"
Because that's how it comes across.
"What about it makes it so?"
Your attitude.
"Is it just a bugaboo that you invented out of your own mind and not based on anything but a whim you have that is entirely baseless and irrational?"
Nope, it's an opinion based on how you talk about black folk. Of course you'd consider it irrational, because you consider anything that you find difficult to be irrational.
Again, I thought that I was allowed to have opinions, I guess you're going to tell me that I can't.
So what, McConnel misspoke. Biden said something similar about "poor kids being just as smart as white kids", but I don't recall you getting your panties in a wad about that. People make mistake, people misspeak, I'm not sure you're perfect enough to expect perfection from others. Hell, after Biden's disastrous press conference, multiple people had to come out and explain why Biden didn't mean what he said.
It's just your double standards reinforced by your prejudices talking.
Craig,
I have to admit to having the same opinion as you when it comes to Dan's use of "black folk." It's paternalistic and condescending.
Glenn,
I don't know that I can quantify it, but it just comes off that way. I think that it goes along with Dan trying to speak for black folk, or his treating black folk like a monolithic group that must rely on white progressives for everything.
Craig (and Glenn)... "you consider anything that you find difficult to be irrational."
No. It's irrational because it's not based on anything in the real world. Black people are not complaining about the use of the word folk. No one is. There's nothing wrong with the word. It's not racist. There's nothing in what I'm saying that's condescending. When I cite black people, or black folk, or black citizens, and I'm referring to what black people have said, or polls showing what the views of a majority of black people, it's just citing or quoting literal facts, literal words and literal data. There's nothing condescending in talking about facts and data.
It's irrational because it makes no sense in the real world. It's not based on anything. I don't know how to help you understand that. No wonder you have such troubles understanding The Bible, you all have troubles understanding words and communication. This is just another sign of that and your irrational, baseless, emotionally fragile responses to common words and communication and basic decency.
Also, you've been talking about the term folk itself when used to refer to black folk to be condescending or patronizing or potentially racist. What's specifically wrong about that word or my use of it?
Nothing.
Look, we see. You've been caught. You made a stupidly stupidly ugly hideously false claim that only morons would believe (Glenn?) because it's entirely based on nothing but an empty spot in the middle of your soul, and you can't support it. We see that... but rather than being an adult about it and saying, "yeah I made a stupidly false and unsupported claim that I can't support because there's nothing to it..." Instead of acting like an adult, you're deciding to hide behind "well it's my opinion ladida", as if that was rational. It's not.
You made a mistake. You've been caught. Just be adult enough to admit it.
And it's another stupidly false claim that I've said that black people in the US are monolithic group who only vote one way Or that must rely on white progressives. That is a damned lie from the pits of hell. It's diabolical. It's false. Stupidly false. Anyone who looks at what I've said can see that it's false. Shame on you, shame on your sick sick pathetic soul. Stop it!
I've always been abundantly clear that I'm just citing the data about how many black people vote for democrats and the data about what poll after poll after poll shows. I'm not making shit up. Unlike you.
You've been caught. You're embarrassing yourself. Admit it and move on. God have mercy.
And you can't quantify because there's nothing there in the real world. I use the term black people, black folk, black Americans just the same way I use white people or white folk or gay folk... it's just a normal word that gets used in everyday language. You're reading into it something that literally is not there. That's why you can't quantify it. Just admit it.
"Also, you've been talking about the term folk itself when used to refer to black folk to be condescending or patronizing or potentially racist. What's specifically wrong about that word or my use of it?"
If you aren't going to read what people write, why bother to respond?
I've been quite clear that in my opinion, your use of the term "black folk" in conjunction with how you talk about "black folk", comes off as paternalistic and condescending. I'm not suggesting that you stop using the term, I'm merely pointing out my opinion about how your refer to "black folk". FYI, I've never even come close to suggesting that it's racist, in point of fact I was very careful NOT to cast it is racist. Labeling something as racist, is your jam, I don't want to step on your toes.
"No. It's irrational because it's not based on anything in the real world."
It's my (and Glenn's) opinion. It's based on how you talk about "black folk", and the tenor and tone of what you say.
"You've been caught. You made a stupidly stupidly ugly hideously false claim that only morons would believe (Glenn?) because it's entirely based on nothing but an empty spot in the middle of your soul, and you can't support it."
Oh my Lord, are you serious? I've really been "caught" expressing my personal opinion? Oh the horror of an adult expressing an opinion. Not only that, but I tried so hard to keep it a secret, but I've been "caught", how will I ever show my face again?
"And it's another stupidly false claim that I've said that black people in the US are monolithic group who only vote one way Or that must rely on white progressives ..."
Again, I never said that you "said that...". If you're not going to respond to what I actually said...
Ahhhhhh, yes, the "Truth is determined by opinion poll" canard. It's a little over used, but that won't stop you.
"You've been caught. You're embarrassing yourself. Admit it and move on. God have mercy."
Oh the horror of being "caught" expressing my opinion on my blog. Perhaps I should be flogged.
I'm very sorry that my expressing my opinion has caused you so much trauma that you feel compelled to repeat yourself more than usual.
As a sinner saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, I count on God having mercy on my soul. I am keenly aware that God having mercy on my soul is my best and only hope.
Craig... "It's based on how you talk about "black folk", and the tenor and tone of what you say."
That's just it. You can't point to anything. You can't point to ANY words that I've used to have been what rational people would consider condescending. Merely citing, "Hey, look what many black people are saying," is not uncondescending. It's just not.
Look, I really don't give a damn about you personally one way or the other. What I'm getting at is the modern conservative tendency to make stupidly false empty unsupported and sometimes dangerously false claims. This falls in that category of stupidly false and unsupported. Just stop doing it. All of you. Stop condoning it, stop accepting it as if it is acceptable, stop normalizing it. Just stop.
Grow up. It's important.
First, a reminder: All of this began when you complained specifically about me using the term "black folk..." that you said more than once "sounds a little racist" (going from memory, I THINK that's what you said, or words to that effect.) Are you changing the goal post to say that it's not "black folk" at all in any way at all in the whole wide earth that is sounding condescending in your head and unsupported baseless opinion. It's something Else? Something in the way I talk about black people in general (as people worthy of being listened to and respected - THAT is somehow condescending and patronizing??)
Here's the first thing I said in this post about black voices... about the one black man you cited.
i. "I get that this is his opinion.
ii. And there's certainly a point to be made that
iii. the Democrats haven't always listened as well as they should to black voices.
iv. BUT we must be clear that neither has the GOP and
v. that the vast majority of black people think that
vi. the GOP is a much worse option for them."
WHAT is condescending about that? What is patronizing to black people about that? Be specific. I'm citing the real world voting patterns of black Americans and the real world poll results in hundreds if not thousands of such polls asking about black Americans' support for both parties. Is citing data when I'm talking to a few white fellows somehow condescending to black people? HOW? Is AGREEING with the one man you cite as having a point, insofar as it goes, but that he's only one man and not in the majority?
And I GET that you may think that opinion polls are worthless, but here's the thing: You have NOTHING to say that all these hundreds of polls are significantly wrong. Nothing. You don't have a corresponding set of OTHER polls that say, "Actually, in our findings, black Americans are split about 50/50 for Dems and GOP." You don't have that because it doesn't exist in the real world.
You recognize that much reality, right?
Even if YOU ARE GUESSING that all these opinion polls are mistaken, you do so based on nothing at all. Nothing. You recognize this, right?
"That's just it. You can't point to anything."
I just did, unfortunately you don't like what I pointed to, and I'm not going to dig up specific examples because it wouldn't make any difference if I did.
"Merely citing, "Hey, look what many black people are saying," is not uncondescending. It's just not."
since I never said it was, I fail to see the relevance.
Your inability to differentiate between an opinion and a claim of fact would be frustrating if only I hadn't been pointing out your unsupported claims of fact for months. Given your inability to support your own claims of fact, I see no standard where you can bitch about my expressing my opinions. Clearly the distinction is lost on you, unless you need something to hide behind.
"First, a reminder: All of this began when you complained specifically about me using the term "black folk..." that you said more than once "sounds a little racist" (going from memory, I THINK that's what you said, or words to that effect.)"
1. If you're too damn lazy to go back and look up what I actually said, but simply decide to make shit up, then you're not worth responding to.
2. I didn't complain about it, I merely expressed my opinion.
"Are you changing the goal post to say that it's not "black folk" at all in any way at all in the whole wide earth that is sounding condescending in your head and unsupported baseless opinion."
No. I have consistently been specific about the fact that I find YOUR use of the term and the tone of your comments about "black folk" to be patronizing and condescending. You could have figured this out all by yourself had you read my words instead of making shit up.
"It's something Else? Something in the way I talk about black people in general (as people worthy of being listened to and respected - THAT is somehow condescending and patronizing??)"
How many times do I have to repeat myself? It's the tone and tenor of many of your comments about "black folk" along with the term "black folk". I will say that your "listen to black voices", while criticizing and diminishing those that don't go along with your narrative seems contradictory. But that's to be expected, I can't imagine that you've listened seriously to a black voice that disagreed with you in years.
"WHAT is condescending about that?"
Since I never said that specific comment was condescending and patronizing, I'm at a loss as to what relevance your question has.
"What is patronizing to black people about that?"
Again, I've explained why I hold my opinion. You cherry picking random comments doesn't change my opinion nor is it relevant.
"Be specific. I'm citing the real world voting patterns of black Americans and the real world poll results in hundreds if not thousands of such polls asking about black Americans' support for both parties. Is citing data when I'm talking to a few white fellows somehow condescending to black people? HOW? Is AGREEING with the one man you cite as having a point, insofar as it goes, but that he's only one man and not in the majority?"
At this point, I simply don't care about your feeble attempts to save face.
"And I GET that you may think that opinion polls are worthless, but here's the thing: You have NOTHING to say that all these hundreds of polls are significantly wrong."
If you're going to make shit up and attribute it to me, I'm not going to dignify your bullshit falsehoods with a response.
"Nothing. You don't have a corresponding set of OTHER polls that say, "Actually, in our findings, black Americans are split about 50/50 for Dems and GOP." You don't have that because it doesn't exist in the real world."
Strangely enough I just posted some poll results that indicate that both Black and Hispanic support for Biden has dropped significantly. We're seeing polls that are indicating that (in WA I believe, which is a pretty blue state) that they are seeing people switch from the DFL to the GOP at unprecedented numbers.
https://nypost.com/2022/01/17/party-preferences-shift-from-democrat-to-republican-in-2021/
https://www.npr.org/2022/01/18/1073774921/americans-political-party-preferences-shifted-to-republicans-in-recent-months
https://news.gallup.com/poll/388781/political-party-preferences-shifted-greatly-during-2021.aspx
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/08/04/voters-rarely-switch-parties-but-recent-shifts-further-educational-racial-divergence/
I suspect that you aren't going to be as excited about these polls as you are about the ones that support your narrative.
The difference is that I don't treat these poll results as objective Truth.
I've been quite clear in the past regarding my conclusions abut polls, and their value. It's something that I studied in University and have written about elsewhere.
So, instead of making shit up and claiming it represents what I've said, why not just be honest instead.
"Even if YOU ARE GUESSING that all these opinion polls are mistaken, you do so based on nothing at all. Nothing. You recognize this, right?"
1. In the absence of the actual wording of the questions asked, I usually don't get quite as excited by polls as you do.
2. As someone who's actually written polling questions and administered polls, I know how easily manipulated the results are.
3. I'm not suggesting that they are "mistaken". I am suggesting that they aren't sufficient to support a claim that something is objectively True.
I just posted links to current polls that don't agree with the polls you mention (and others in another post), but I'll see if you acknowledge that fact.
"BUT we must be clear that neither has the GOP and that the vast majority of black people think that the GOP is a much worse option for them."
This is an interesting claim given that fact that the GOP is the only reason why the civil rights legislation of the mid 60's is law.
What's interesting is that you are essentially saying that another 4 years (on top of the previous 40) of the DFL NOT doing what they promised for the black community, is better than what your partisan, biased, prejudiced, imagination can conjure up about what the GOP might, possibly do. I'm not sure that trying to sow fear about what might, possibly, maybe, could happen is a healthy way to make public policy. But I guess when the DFL has failed to deliver for decades, it's the only strategy left.
FYI, (Pre COVID government reaction), Employment and wages for blacks were at record highs. I wonder why P-BO couldn't make that happen in 8 years?
It's also interesting that you haven't engaged on my posts where this is the actual topic.
FYI, the reality is that IF the DFL can convince the black community that the only way to protect their right to vote (despite the record turnouts in 2020 and the virtually fraud free 2020 election), then this narrative will benefit the DFL. That's just the reality that if the DFL loses it's grip on the 90% of blacks that vote, that the DFL will lost a significant amount of power. But hey, if you think that more of the same DFL policies that have filed for the last 40 years is the answer, how about running on what y'all have accomplished rather than on the fear of what might, possibly, maybe, could happen if the bogyman gets elected.
I again remind all of Dan's many admonishments about how comments of ours "sound" to him and others...particularly black people. "Don't you understand how that might sound like racism to black foljs?" or words to that effect. Craig merely expresses how Dan's words sound to him (Craig).
I join Craig and Glenn in insisting their is indeed a patronizing tone to Dan's response to race issues. It's of a type which compelled a book by Jason Reilly on the subject of whites like Dan "helping" the black community, while not really helping at all. (I'll get the title later). But we see average blacks respond in kind when questioned about Voter ID.
Craig.. "What's interesting is that you are essentially saying that another 4 years (on top of the previous 40) of the DFL NOT doing what they promised for the black community, is better than what your partisan, biased, prejudiced, imagination can conjure up about what the GOP might, possibly do."
?? What I'm saying is that this is what most black people believe IF you look at all the polls and their voting patterns. I'm not talking for anyone, I'm telling you what the data shows us. What are you failing to understand in that?
Craig... "I just did, unfortunately you don't like what I pointed to, and I'm not going to dig up specific examples because it wouldn't make any difference if I did."
I see nothing. It has nothing to do with "liking what you point to." It's that you haven't pointed to anything. Because there is nothing. IF there was, you could point to it. Your complete absence of any ability to point to ANYTHING is evidence of how stupidly false your claim is.
What's weird is how a rational adult can't just admit it (or cite the quote and prove it).
Craig... "I just posted some poll results that indicate that both Black and Hispanic support for Biden has dropped significantly. We're seeing polls that are indicating that (in WA I believe, which is a pretty blue state) that they are seeing people switch from the DFL to the GOP at unprecedented numbers.
https://nypost.com/2022/01/17/party-preferences-shift-from-democrat-to-republican-in-2021/"
1. I have not said that there are not always shifts in support, up and down, depending on the race and issues and year.
2. What I've said is that black people vote overwhelmingly for Democrats and stand overwhelmingly opposed to many GOP policies and they recognize the reality of racism in their lives.
3. Your first poll doesn't say a thing different. Indeed, it doesn't even TOUCH on race. That's your "proof" that the GOP is considered to be the party that black people want to be identified with?
Do you understand how supporting your argument works, don't you?
If you want to argue that the polls about black support for the GOP or GOP candidates is always changing, so what? I'VE NOT said otherwise. For instance, in 2016, black support for Trump was about 8%. In 2020, it had risen all the way up to about 12% (depending on the survey).
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/11/09/no-trump-didnt-win-the-largest-share-of-non-white-voters-of-any-republican-in-60-years/?sh=1b82888c4a09
But that's NOT saying that Trump or the GOP has won over black voters. You recognize that, right? You recognize that when I say black voters tend to vote overwhelmingly for the Democrat candidate in elections, that this is supported by the data? Sometimes it may be 65% or 70%. Sometimes it's over 90%. But it's rarely to never a majority for the GOP.
Do you recognize that reality?
Do you recognize that your first link (the NY Post link) says nothing at all about black voters?
The same is true for your second, third and fourth link. NONE of them say anything about black voters switching to support the GOP. Nothing.
What's the point of those links?
Craig... "I suspect that you aren't going to be as excited about these polls as you are about the ones that support your narrative."
? What does this mean? What I've done is cite the studies over the decades and right up until today that show that black people vote overwhelmingly for the Democrats. Your sources don't even mention the word "black" or "white" or touch on racial changes in voting patterns. It's not that they "don't support my narrative." They don't even DEAL with the data I've cited.
The data I've been citing...
"Trends in party affiliation among black voters have been largely stable over recent years. Overall, 87% of black voters identify with the Democratic Party or lean Democratic, compared with just 7% who identify as Republican or lean Republican."
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/09/13/2-party-affiliation-among-voters-1992-2016/
"Near-unanimity is undeniably a persistent feature of Black voting behavior. From 1964 to 2008, according to a report by the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, an average of 88 percent of Black votes went to the Democratic Party’s presidential nominees, a number that increased to 93 percent in the last three presidential elections."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/magazine/black-vote.html
https://www.pewresearch.org/2020/09/23/the-changing-racial-and-ethnic-composition-of-the-u-s-electorate/
Are you suggesting these polls and surveys and research are all mistaken and somehow, somewhere, there IS a majority of black voters for the GOP? Where?
Do you even understand the argument I'm making?
It's NOT that the black vote (or white vote or hispanic vote or LGBTQ vote) is a monolith. I've never said that because that's not reality and I understand reality.
It's NOT that black people "rely on white progressives for everything..." Because I've NEVER said any such foolishness. That remains a damned and damning (for you) stupidly false lie.
What I'm saying is that the majority of black people vote for democrats - typically, the vast majority, ranging from 70-90+%, depending on the issue/election/candidate. When I say that black voters or black folks tend to overwhelmingly vote for Democrats, that's just observing reality. Nothing could be construed to be patronizing in that.
Are you reading my words and just totally missing my point, over and over and over? It appears to be the case.
Art,
Excellent point. I'd forgotten how often how often Dan gets his panties in a wad because he decided that something we said "sounds" bad, I guess that's just one more example of the double standard he lives.
"? What I'm saying is that this is what most black people believe IF you look at all the polls and their voting patterns. I'm not talking for anyone, I'm telling you what the data shows us. What are you failing to understand in that?"
Again, with your random and bizarre use of punctuation.
What I'm understanding is that you are arguing that it's reasonable for people to support a political party that has failed to live up to it's promises for decades, while living in fear of what another political party might, maybe, possibly, do at some unknown point in a hypothetical future. I'm suggesting that choosing failure because of fear is not a healthy way to live.
1. Yet you frequently cite polls as if they represent Truth, instead if simply opinion.
2. It's interesting that in virtually every city where there have been protests against the police, systemic racism, and the like, are all run by the DFL. Not only that, but in many cases they've been run by the DFL for decades. Yet they're kept in fear of what the GOP might, may, possibly do at some point in a hypothetical future.
But let's look at some issues
De-fund the police-https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/10/police-reform-polls-white-black-crime.html- Blacks overwhelmingly support keeping of increasing funding for the police.
School Choice- https://www.reimaginedonline.org/2021/06/national-survey-shows-black-parents-continue-to-support-education-choice/, again blacks support this GOP policy, while the DFL fights against it tooth and nail.
I've given you tow examples, while you've just made broad unsupported claims about unidentified "GOP policies". What's interesting is that this notion of supporting decades of failure, while fearing the possibility of future policies seems strange to me. What if (as happened during the pre COVID part of Trump's term) GOP policies would actually help blacks, but y'all have them afraid to even try to support something different?
3. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was referring to an earlier post I did that was focused on the racial aspect. Strangely, you chose not to engage on that post.
"Do you understand how supporting your argument works, don't you?"
Yes, I do. I do it regularly. You, on the other hand, aren't quite as familiar with the concept when it's applied to yourself. I've frequently called you out over the past few months, for making unsupported claims of fact, misrepresenting me, or paraphrasing something I said in such a way as to make it appear as if I said something else. Perhaps you need a refresher. For example, you've not offered one single bit of support for your claim about "blacks not supporting GOP policies", at least not any specific examples. I wonder why you'd fail to support your argument, and complain about me not doing so (although I did, I apparently wasn't clear enough for you) in the same comment?
"You recognize that, right? You recognize that when I say black voters tend to vote overwhelmingly for the Democrat candidate in elections, that this is supported by the data?" Yes, I do realize that in the recent past that has been the trend. I guess LBJ might have been right about the "Nxxxxxx".
"Do you recognize that reality?"
This is probably the stupidest question you ask and you ask it repeatedly regardless of whether or not your hunch about "reality" has actually been proven or not.
FYI, in the absence of evidence, it seems strange to assume that black votes for the DFL and the decades of DFL failure to live up to their promises, is 100% due to blacks not supporting 100% of all GOP policies. Perhaps the answer would be to provide evidence that supports the actual claim you made "blacks don't support GOP policies", instead of simply that blacks vote for DFL candidates.
Further, (I'm working from memory, and don't have time to search out the post I did on the subject), I'm pretty sure that a shift in black votes from 10% to the GOP to 20-30% to the GOP would be enough to have given Trump the 2020 election easily. Let's also be correct in saying that it's not a majority of "blacks" that keep the DFL ensconced in power over deteriorating cities and states, it's a majority of "black voters". When you say that "blacks" support X,Y, or Z, but offer voting as the "proof" then the statement is not factual. You can't make claims about those blacks who didn't vote based on the % who did. Let's try being precise, and providing support for the actual claims you actually make.
"What's the point of those links?"
As I said when I answered this the first time, I was referring to an earlier post, and probalby wasn't as clear as I could have been.
Of course, the fact that you ask the same question over and over without even giving me a chance to answer (I literally can't answer questions that I don't see, and the only time I see your questions is when I post them), just makes you look like an impatient asshole.
I'm going to assume that the rest of this comment is just more of the same repetition of crap I've already dealt with, and ignore it.
Further, to be more precise, it should be American black voters if using only election results to make one's case is the only "proof" being offered. I'd suspect that blacks in other parts of the world don't fall in line with black Americans who vote. Yet, the imprecise term "blacks" indicates a level of support for specific DFL policies, as well as a level of objection to specific GOP policies, yet no evidence of that support for specific policies has been provided. It's only been assumed, without any specific evidence.
FYI, Redlining was a policy conceived and enacted by a DFL administration, do American black voters support that policy?
First, the author is Jason L. Riley, and his book I referenced is Please Stop Helping Us: How Liberals Make It Harder for Blacks to Succeed. I haven't read it myself, but I've heard him speak on it, and he pretty much confirms the notion that people like Dan are not doing the black community any favors by their patronizing, enabling attitudes toward that which does nothing to make life better for the black community.
Secondly, Man! I made a lot of typos in my last comment!
Thirdly, the issue is never a matter of whether or not someone like myself disagrees with the support for the Dems by blacks. It's always a question of why and Dan's suggestion that they fear the consequences of voting for the GOP may be valid, but not in the least bit justifiable. Those blacks who have moved to the GOP...even to support someone like Donald Trump...have recognized the failures of the Dem party to do jack shit for blacks and recognize the GOP works for "Americans" and not any particular group. That is, if you're an American, the GOP is concerned about and beneficial for you far more than the Dems with all their marketing as champions for any cause.
Art, exactly. The notion that blacks vote primarily based on fear of some unknown (possible, maybe, potential), non specific, future outcome doesn't seem like a healthy thought process to me. The fact that Dan is arguing that 4+ decades of failure, of things getting worse, of the DFL being in control of the "systems" that are full of "systemic racism", is better than the unknown just doesn't pass the smell test. The fact that many of the black people who go off script and point out how poorly the DFL has served black Americans or has the nerve to advocate for ANY conservative policies, gets tarred with racist epitaphs.
I've posted examples before, but "House Nigger", "Uncle Tom", and the like are pretty common on social media as responses to conservative blacks.
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