Beto, the Irish Hispanic, thinks that all white people should pay reparations to black communities for slavery.
Based on my research, I’m pretty positive that the only branch of my family that was in the US prior to slavery being outlawed, was Cherokee.
That makes all kind of sense. I’m sure my dad who grew upon a farm in the depression, earned his college in Korea, and started his own company would be glad to know about all the privilege he had.
What a bunch of crap.
34 comments:
It's not a cry for justice. It's a cry for your cash. It's a money grab. But if they insist, they should remember to focus on the party of racism...the Democratic Party. Otherwise, they'll need to determine which of us had family during the period when slavery was in place, (on my mother's side, I'm only second generation...on my father's side, perhaps third...thus, no slavers in my family) and which of those families were northerners who fought the slave states and which defended them. Then, which black people are actual descendants of slaves...and on and on. Good luck with that.
Instead, just know that the reparations crowd is of two people:
1. Those looking for free money.
2. Those looking to buy votes with free money.
Educate yourself, man. Don't fear reality or efforts to improve people's lives and attempt to correct past injustice and pay reasonable debts. Slavery HAS caused harm and continues to cause harm. Racial discrimination HAS caused harm and continues to cause harm. We white folk HAVE benefited from the same systems (even those of us who weren't raised in wealthy households and whose parents and grandparents weren't wealthy.
Don't be ignorant. Embrace knowledge and understanding and justice.
https://www.theroot.com/yes-you-can-measure-white-privilege-1794303451
Art, of course it’s a cash transfer, the reality is that most of it will probably go to “community organizations” or other groups that have overhead and expenses, minimizing the direct benefits to individuals.
Dan,
You’ll note that I’ve not claimed that there aren’t people who have benefited from things in the past. But to simply assume that all “white” people benefited equally, or to assume that the “benefits” only benefit “white” people exclusively is also wrong.
I’m simply pointing out the reality that some blanket, one size fits all, campaign promise, sound byte, easy answer, isn’t the answer .
Yet Dan is still freely welcomed to comment here with no restrictions.
Look, I'm not inclined to comment here much, because I don't take you seriously. I think of you more as a troll rather than someone interested in genuine dialog. But in case you're just truly coming from a place of ignorance and a lack of understanding...
ALL of us white folk have benefited from white privilege. That is why it's called what it's called. It doesn't matter if your family never had slaves in the past... the Craig family STILL benefited due to their "whiteness." And at the same time, it doesn't matter if a given black family had ancestors who were slaves in the past or not, they STILL were set back due to their race.
Do some reading. Maybe begin with Wendell Berry's "The Hidden Wound." Or even just that article I sent your way. Learn more. Educate yourselves.
WE ALL, who are white, have benefited from the oppression of black folk in the past. That is why reparations makes sense.
There is a national shame in our history. We have a debt that is still owed. It's way past time to pay it.
And it's way past time for conservatives to quit fighting paying back a debt that is owed and live up to the name "Conservative." In the past, conservatives stood up for paying off debts.
Not in the Trump "Greed is good" "the buck goes on to anyone else but me" era.
Dan, I am fully aware why you rarely comment outside of your cocoon, and I’m aware that it’s easier for you to dismiss me as a “troll” or “Russian bot” or whatever else you choose to use as an excuse. Personally I’d consider someone who posts over 1000 repeats of the same comment, or makes endless off topic comments a troll, but that’s because I’m a little more inclined towards grace than you.
The fact remains that I continue to offer you the courtesy of commenting no matter how vile your language gets or how many questions you don’t answer.
You can be obtuse about those sorts of things, so it’s good to point out.
Oh, and thank you so much for passing judgement on people you don’t know.
Who do you think I'm passing judgment on? The benefits and privileges afforded white people is support of measurable data an observable reality.
Perhaps your problem is you just are not that familiar with the measurable data and observable reality...?
Indeed, your ability to be ignorant of the reality of the harm caused to black folks in the Privileges of white folks is, itself, a sign of your white privilege.
Your passing judgement on my family and the reality of the lack of any sort of privilege in going from a farm in the depression to a professional career. Your blanket “all whites”, “all blacks” simplistic “punish everybody” tropes don’t acknowledge reality.
Ignoring what reality? That some people are “privileged”, not at all. Of course some people are. It’s this simplistic, broad brush, group identity politically correct, campaign promises Beto (the Hispanic Irishman) is making that I’m pointing out.
Look, if you had the intellectual honesty to apply the same standards to the DFL slate as you do to Trump, you’d call him a liar who’s seeking to stoke division and exploit people.
You’re like the limousine liberals and the private jet environmentalists, if you were serious about this kind of thing you’d live out your convictions. Instead you just want the government to support imposing your convictions on everyone else.
No. You're ignoring the reality that you and your family is privileged by nature of your white race. That's what you two failing to understand. You're failing to understand it and your mind does not appear to be even open to the possibility that that could be the reality of it all.
The reality is, all white people in the US are privileged in a way that all black folk in the US are not. That is reality.
The question is, do you recognize that reality? Because you do not appear willing to even give it a moment's thought. You would do well to be a bit more humble and consider what the other person is saying, especially when you're denying reality.
Here's a tip, go visit some black churches and spend some time learning from them.
Dan,
Giving you some grace and the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps I wasn’t as clear as you needed me to be.
My problem isn’t with a rational fact based conversation about if and how our current society should compensate those who were economically disadvantaged (but that includes more than black folk).
My problem is with the glib campaign promise with no substance beyond “Y’all should get free money.”, and the funneling of that money through groups, instead of to individuals, that I’m finding difficult to stomach.
Just so you know what you’re railing against.
The glibness is in your own mind. No one is advocating here, let's just give out free money without any thought. The current proposals that have been made proposed have been things like let's create a research group to figure out what this would look like. Research. Looking into it. Thoughtful. The opposite of glib. That is the reality.
As to your family's Hard Knock Life, the point is NOT that white people have not been poor. Do you understand that reality? The point is that being white has afforded your poor ancestors privileges that black folk have not enjoyed. Black families have had hardships that your white family ancestors did not have to go through. That's just the reality of it all.
The question is, do you recognize reality or not? And this is why I don't deem conversation with you helpful. Because you simply fail to understand reality correctly and I don't know how to help you with that. Good luck.
And what YOU said was...
Beto, the Irish Hispanic, thinks that all white people should pay reparations to black communities for slavery.
What the reality is...
"Beto O’Rourke told a crowd of black activists Wednesday he would support a study examining reparations for communities hurt by slavery and segregation"
He supports examining the question of reparations. Not "all white people..." but our nation. And researching into the matter.
Just to be clear.
From there, YOU went on to say that you don't think your family was in the US during the slavery period and you blithely said...
I’m sure my dad who grew upon a farm in the depression, earned his college in Korea, and started his own company would be glad to know about all the privilege he had.
As if owning slaves is the only way that the rest of the US/white people have benefited from our history of slavery and racism.
YOUR DAD benefited, by nature of his being white, by being able to vote. By not being distrusted because of his race. By the quality of his schooling. By the OPTION of his schooling. By being able to serve unfettered in the military and receiving benefits from that service. By being able to run for office, should he so choose, and do so without the negative consequences faced by black folk. By being able to move to neighborhoods that black folk couldn't move to. Without fearing the KKK would harass him or the police would arrest him for being black.
In hundreds of ways, large and small, our parents and grandparents all benefited from white privilege and the absence of the discrimination faced by the black community. We ARE privileged and your continued denial of that just shows how privileged you are... that you have the option of denying that reality.
Black folk, by and large, don't have that privilege today.
Here's a story about the prejudice and lack of privilege black soldiers faced during your Dad's war... prejudices HE was privileged, by virtue of his race, to not have to endure. Your dad didn't have to endure serving the military under the leadership of a general (MacArthur) who thought he was inferior due to his race. And, incidentally, when your dad served in the Korean War, that was the first time that black soldiers could fight alongside white soldiers. Prior to that, they had racially divided troops and even more overt discrimination (Muskegee Airmen, anyone?)
https://koreanwarlegacy.org/chapters/african-americans-in-the-korean-war/
And to try to help you with your ignorance you've embraced, here's another article listing ten obvious ways that YOU and your poor white family had privileges that you don't even have the grace to recognize. Saying this is NOT "passing judgment" on your poor family. It's noting reality.
The reality is, you and your family, as white people, had privileges, as I do.
1. I Have the Privilege of Having a Positive Relationship with the Police, Generally
2. I Have the Privilege of Being Favored by School Authorities
3. I Have the Privilege of Attending Segregated Schools of Affluence
4. I Have the Privilege of Learning about My Race in School
5. I Have the Privilege of Finding Children’s Books that Overwhelmingly Represent My Race
6. I Have the Privilege of Soaking in Media Blatantly Biased Toward My Race
7. I Have the Privilege of Escaping Violent Stereotypes Associated with My Race
8. I Have the Privilege of Playing the Colorblind Card, Wiping the Slate Clean of Centuries of Racism
9. I Have the Privilege of Being Insulated from the Daily Toll of Racism
10. I Have the Privilege of Living Ignorant of the Dire State of Racism Today
https://www.yesmagazine.org/peace-justice/10-examples-that-prove-white-privilege-exists-in-every-aspect-imaginable-20170724
Read. Learn. Embrace that privilege you have and put it to use, humbly and with an eye towards justice and, indeed, reparations.
Do good with your privilege.
Dan,
I’ve done plenty of good with my “privilege”, but my privilege has less to do with my skin color, and more to do with how I was raised.
What’s interesting is that the black Korean War vets I’ve talked to told a different story. But you’ve decreed otherwise, so that’s moot.
I’ll try this again. Beto (the Hispanic Irishman), is using this issue as a wedge campaign issue. If Trump called for this you’d be apoplectic. I understand how important group/racial identity politics are to you and yours, but I also see black gen Z young people that don’t want reparations, they want the opportunity to achieve in their own merits.
I get that you can show correlation, in specific instances causation (redlining and lending practices), yet what political party controls virtually every metropolitan area where these things occurred?
Again, Beto (the Hispanic Irishman) can talk about what other people should do, what’s stopping him from actually spending his own millions on studies? Hell, why not just do his own private reparations? He doesn’t need 9 million dollars.
That’s the point Dan, it’s all talk. There is no rational place for the US government to come up with money for significant reparations. We’re billions of dollars in debt, going deeper, and if She Guevara gets her way will be adding trillions on top of that.
My objection is that he’s not serious about this. Yet he and the fawning media will act like he is.
Especially when he says it in his “native Spanish”.
There may be a valid conversation to be had here, but simply pumping cash to the Sharpton’s, Jackson’s, and the same old corrup lot isn’t the answer. Don’t even bother to make the argument that those folx won’t see the lion’s share come through their organizations and that plenty of it’ll stick on the way through.
Again, I’ve done/do quite a bit with whatever small privilege I have, but I’ve also been harassed by cops, denied credit, and all sorts of things.
It’s just not as simplistic as y’all need it to be.
I wonder if you can admit the reality, or even recognize the reality, that your first line is just stupidly false..?
Beto does not want to "give away money."
Beto does not want "white people to pay."
What Beto has advocated is forming a research committee which is different than those two things.
The purpose of the committee would be to determine if reparations should be made and how they could best be made.
The point would not be to make white people pay. That's stupidly false. Do you recognize that?
The point would not be to give away, free money. That's stupidly false... if it's a debt - and reparations are to pay back a debt... - then it's not free money. It's money that's owed to them. So that too is stupidly false.
Do you recognize the reality of how stupidly false your claims were?
Dan,
Do you realize that my “first line” is sarcastic hyperbole? It’s not intended to be a direct quote, it’s illustrating absurdity by being absurd.
Unlike those on the left (Twitter, Dan, etc), your comments are welcome here, and while I’d always appreciate you answering the questions or responses to the threads you’ve left hanging, I’ll graciously allow your comments to publish.
Even when your comments veer into stupidity, they still stay up.
If reparations are “a debt”, that is owed by whites to blacks, then are you suggesting that black folx will be paying reparations to themselves?
Again, to cast this in a simplistic manner doesn’t help. And Beto (the Hispanic Irishman), was pretty clear in the quote a saw that he is talking about monetary payments to types of corrupt organizations that Sharpton and Jackson have run. (Clearly he isn’t going to say that the corrupt organizations will get the $, but the reality is that they’ll get significant chunks of whatever there is.
In the future, I’ll give you a special warning label so you’ll know for sure when I’m taking “poetic license”, so to speak.
I do love how anyone on your excrement list is automatically a “stupid liar”, while those you like get a pass from you.
So, you want me to answer your questions but you're not going to answer mine? I mean that's sort of what I have grown to expect from you, but the irony of you asking that is, well, ironic.
Reparations are a debt owed 2 slaves and by extension their descendants, by the US government. It was the US government that allowed systems of slavery, oppression, systemic racism, to flourish and exist. Therefore the debt is owed by the US government. Which is to say, all of us. Of course, it is Up For Debate how to raise the money, but I doubt seriously that anybody would suggest taxing just white people.
So with that explanation, do you understand now that is stupidly false to suggest that O'Rourke is talking about taxing white people?
And I'll ask again, do you now understand that all white people have had privileges not afforded black folks? That even poor whites had benefits from slavery and from racism? It appears your answer is no. Or, perhaps more likely, you don't even understand the question. I can't help you with that.
Good luck.
"Again, to cast this in a simplistic manner doesn’t help."
Agreed. The one point you've made that is correct.
For instance, it would be simplistic to say, "The debt was owed to slaves. The slaves are gone. Therefore, no debt is owed..."
There were long-lasting consequences of slavery and the racist systems that supported it. Those consequences are still being paid. We can't make it right until we pay the debt owed.
It's not simple. HOW did slavery/racism negatively impact the descendants of slaves in the US? Black folk in general? There's not ONE simple answer. It's complex. It would have been simpler and better to not have enslaved people in the first place. It would have been simpler and better to have paid reparations right away upon emancipation.
But we didn't take the simpler, better way. Now, any answer is going to be complex and imperfect. That doesn't mean that the debt isn't owed, still.
Yes, I’d love for you to answer the multiple threads worth of questions you’ve left hanging . But what you seem to be suggesting that you are essentially holding my past questions to you hostage until I do what you want in the present. That seems strange, until I realize that I’m dealing with you.
But, as a token of the grace you won’t show me, I’ll answer.
Had I said that Beto (the Hispanic Irishman) was proposing a tax only on white people you’d be correct. I did point out the irony of taxing black folx to pay themselves reparations as well as the fiscal impossibly of raising reparations through taxation.
I I understand that any time a claim is made about “all white people” and “all black people”, that it’s almost certainly a false statement. Given that, your simplistic reduction of this to a black/white issue kind of makes my point.
Now, as you often ask and rarely provide, let’s see some definitive proof that “all” white people benefited from slavery, and that “all” black people suffered. While you’re at it, you can talk about the proportions of benefit and harm.
So yes, I’d love for you to prove your claims and answer the multitude of questions you’ve left hanging over the past month. I suspect that neither of those two things will happen, therefore I won’t be disappointed.
As usual, answer or don’t answer, prove or don’t prove, I’ll publish it all anyway.
All white people did not have to worry about the KKK. All black people did. That's just simple reality. All white people did not have to worry about being judged negatively for the color of their skin. All black people did. Again, reality. All white people did not have to live with the consequences of Jim Crow. All black people did. You can't be so blind as to not recognize the harmful results of our racist history and systems.
Again, spend some time talking with some African Americans. They'll tell you. They don't have the white privilege to be blithely unaware of the harmful results.
Not all white people were free from worry about the KKK. The Klan also persecuted Jews and Catholics. The Klan also attacked whites active in the civil rights movement.
The Klan was never large enough to have affected all blacks.
Again, you keep making claims, yet you don’t offer proof. Do you understand that you are making claims of fact? Do you understand that claims of fact might require that you prove those claims?
I’ve talked to enough American blacks to know that they don’t all share your obsession with racism.
Yes, I’m well aware of what’s happened.
Again, your unverified truth claims and shots at me will be published, but they’ll also be challenged.
“Just so you know - if Democrats win the Presidency they will not be providing you or anyone you know with reparations for slavery. This entire conversation is meant to scam black people into voting for Democracts. Again, they try to treat us as idiots.”
I read Dan's link, because unlike him, I do that sort of thing out of courtesy for whomever provides one, even knowing it will likely be a waste of time. This particular link doesn't actually provide anything more than stats that the "researchers" interpret as proof of privilege. But it doesn't do that. It suggests that it can ONLY mean privilege, when it says nothing about behaviors, for example, that can explain the disparities.
But let's assume for a moment that it was absolute proof of the charge. It would still not justify reparations. And this crap about "encouraging research" is...well...crap. It is still suggesting that there is justification for this redistribution of wealth. Later, I will provide links of my own that show how stupid this "White Privilege" whine really is.
Privilege is virtually impossible to prove (to the standards Dan demands of others), it’s even harder to prove that “all” of any group have or are anything.
On Boto’s (the Hispanic Irishman) side it’s simply pandering and an attempt to exploit racial divisions. On Dan’s part, it must be some sort of misplaced guilt, which demands that others pay regardless of actual guilt.
It's truly very complicated in this active life to listen news on TV, therefore I only
use world wide web for that purpose, and take the hottest information.
You should get right with Jesus and repent of yours baseline brutality and sordid passivity. While you still have time.
“Students at Georgetown University have voted overwhelmingly to create a fund to provide reparations to descendants of 272 slaves sold to fund the school in the 19th century, a major step in becoming one of the first major U.S. institutions to provide financial restitution for a role in slavery. More than two-thirds of undergraduate students approved the measure in online voting, which ended Thursday night, according to Georgetown’s student newspaper The Hoya. The report added that 58% of undergraduates participated, “the highest turnout in recorded student government electoral history.”
Feo,
I’m going to publish your comment because it makes a good point.
The Georgetown students have voluntarily decided to make reparations to the specific descendants of specific slaves whose sale directly benefited the students who made the choice.
To extrapolate that to governmentally imposed reparations, is quite a leap.
Don’t expect any further exceptions.
Feo,
I’m not going to post your comment, but I will point out that your examples don’t support the broad policy being endorsed by Dan.
When it comes to reparations do I listen to Dan, or Thomas Sowell?
“The point would not be to make white people pay. That's stupidly false. Do you recognize that?”
I recognize that you’ve put that spin on it. The reality is that everyone: “red and yellow, black and white” will pay. Regardless of harm or culpability.
“Do you realize the reality of how stupidly false your claims are?”
Sarcastic, sure. Hyperbolic, yup. Broad, gross, over generalizations, correct. Stupidly false? Given your own assertions that no actual plan exists, I’d say it’s too early to make that call.
“Muskeegee airmen?”
You must mean Tuskegee Airmen, brave men you’d call sinful for engaging in warfare.
“Who do you think I’m passing judgement on?”
I wasn’t referring to you. But generally the poor white farmers that earned upward mobility through the GI bill and their (in your world sinful) participation in WW2 and The Korean War. Risking life and limb to save the innocent and stop the spread of evil.
“Perhaps your not familiar with...”
I’ve done some research. But I don’t think that was really a question.
Some things I've come across that seemed relevant:
https://madamenoire.com/79228/8-examples-of-black-privilege/9/
Argued examples of black privilege:
--Affirmative action quotas and other privileges in education and employment.
--A wide variety of organizations catering specifically to Blacks and promoting their interests, without being considered controversial. There are few organizations specifically for Whites that are not considered controversial.
--Before elections, it is considered politically correct to appeal specifically to Black voters, but not to White voters.
--Black identity and pride is considered a form of empowerment. White identity and pride is considered a form of racism.
--Much lower risk of being accused of racism than Whites, even if the circumstances are similar.
--Blacks can use racism in order to explain various individual or group failures, while Whites can not.
--No White guilt and a movement promoting this.
--"Black History Month" and similar events.
--"Black Studies" depicts Black positively. "Whiteness studies" depicts Whites negatively.
--Racial "diversity"/"sensitivity training" depicting Blacks positively and Whites negatively.
While some of the above is the result of attempts trying to correct past wrongs against the black race, it not only shows some privileges afforded to blacks, but also demonstrates attempts at "reparations" or pay back for past injustices.
https://pushingrubberdownhill.com/2017/11/06/the-very-real-black-privilege/
The above is just one Aussie's opinion because they deal with this "white privilege" nonsense way down under as well.
It is an inane thing to say that reparations...or, "forming a research committee...to determine if reparations should be made and how they could best be made"...are a debt that must be paid, given the fact that attempts have been made ever since Emancipation to right the slavery wrongs. The subjectivity involved in determining who should be so repaid is on another level not commonly seen even today.
There's no reason why anyone could not achieve in this country, barring mental or physical limitations, and reparations wouldn't do a damned thing to bring about any real change in those to whom they are made if they don't change anything in how they live their lives.
"1. I Have the Privilege of Having a Positive Relationship with the Police, Generally"
So does any law-abiding citizen. But there are those who present themselves in a manner that suggests to police high probability of law-breaker. In my "yoot", I was often scrutinized simply because I had long hair (it was the early 70's). This, too, was by older people, teachers, potential employers as well as by police. Those who were of the black leather class with slicked-backed hair also provoked suspicion. Bikers still conjure fears among most that they are Hell's Angels types, even if they're just people who like to ride. They draw extra attention from law-enforcement as well.
Many in the black community assume they will be treated poorly by the police and that exacerbates the problem between them. I once read of a black dude who became a cop and looked forward to serving in the community from which he came. When that dream became reality, his own neighbors no longer wanted anything to do with him simply because he was now a cop, even despite his desire to make sure that his neighbors could count on at least one guy who treat them fairly.
"2. I Have the Privilege of Being Favored by School Authorities"
My oldest is a high school math teacher and has been for quite a while. She teaches at a school with an extremely high population of low income minorities. SHE and her school administrators favor kids who do their work and behave...very similar to how it worked throughout all the years I was in school. Until high school, there were no blacks in the schools I attended. "Privilege" was not afforded any who blew off their work and ignored the rules.
There's a meme that black kids are disciplined by educators more often and more severely than whites. It's a meaningless claim without knowing the details of the incidents that brought about the discipline. Kids who are well-behaved and studious are an absolute joy to teachers and administrators. Regardless of race, they are treated better than others due to their track record when caught up in situations that bring about disciplinary consequences.
"3. I Have the Privilege of Attending Segregated Schools of Affluence"
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/hbcu
I don't know how common it is for white people to consider schools based on its racial makeup. I would wager it's not at all common.
"4. I Have the Privilege of Learning about My Race in School"
Never, throughout all of my school years, did we learn about "my race". We learned about historic figures. Some were heroic, some were villains. Race wasn't in the equation unless the topic was actually about race. Never did any teacher present a lesson as being about learning about white people.
"5. I Have the Privilege of Finding Children’s Books that Overwhelmingly Represent My Race"
Easy for black people to rectify. Write children's books with black characters. But what an inane topic, as if in a white majority nation children's books would reflect feature characters of the same race as the author. That's not "privilege" in any sense of the term.
"6. I Have the Privilege of Soaking in Media Blatantly Biased Toward My Race"
Another idiotic suggestion considering the nation is still majority white. At the same time, to suggest the bias is toward white people these days is even more idiotic seeing as how white people are the scourge of the earth to the lefties who control the media. Race/ethnicity is rarely mentioned in initial reports of criminal activity, and often it is purposely omitted when the perpetrators are black or muslim.
"7. I Have the Privilege of Escaping Violent Stereotypes Associated with My Race"
As noted above, this is the consequence of behavior...a self-inflicted profile more often than not. That stereotype can only be erased by establishing a new one.
"8. I Have the Privilege of Playing the Colorblind Card, Wiping the Slate Clean of Centuries of Racism"
Who does this? The "card" is that which Martin Luther King Jr. hoped and encouraged all would play, and now it's not to be? And who plays it to "wipe the slate clean"? That's absurd.
"9. I Have the Privilege of Being Insulated from the Daily Toll of Racism"
One can wallow in this mythical toll or live one's life. Some have the "privilege" of blaming racism for all that goes wrong in their lives. White people don't.
"10. I Have the Privilege of Living Ignorant of the Dire State of Racism Today"
Normal, rational people are fully aware of how racism festers in this country, mostly...indeed almost exclusively... due to those who profit from the proliferation of the "USA is racist" narrative. Obama...the great uniting force...did more to perpetuate this dire state than reduce it. The Al Sharptons, the BLMers...the feos of the world...and the idiot who put together this list of ten talking points... will continue making sure the flames of racism burn hot.
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