"So since so many Europeans and US Galaxy Brains are worried about Trump caving to Russia and Europe not being at the big boy table, let me give my European friends some advice on how you could flip the table, gain leverage, and become a player again: 1. Massive arms package to Ukraine including flooding the zone with the most advanced weaponry. 2. Make public multilateral statement that no matter what the US does, Europe will work with and aid Ukraine in its defense against aggression of sovereign borders 3. Layout a path to European Union membership that includes the full Ukrainian borders 4. Deployment of individual European state forces to Baltics and other similar states for training and assistance purposes All of a sudden, Europe has blown up anything Trump has done and forced his hand making any deal he strikes with Putin irrelevant. I doubt Europe will do anything but issue a press release promising to create a committee which will explore the issue and form another committee to write a white paper. However, if you want to be relevant, do something like this."
Anonymous
With all of the hoopla around Trump trying to work on ending the war in Ukraine, it seems like Europe has dropped the ball once again. This is in their backyard, and they've been expecting the US to shoulder much of the burden in this conflict which has little to do with US national interest IMO. (Obviously, invading other countries is bad and should be dealt with, but maybe it shouldn't always be the US)
It doesn't help that both Puttin and Zelensky are unlikable, autocrats who are not strangers to corruption. It certainly doesn't help that Zelensky seems to think that the US owes Ukraine unlimited, unaccountable funding in perpetuity. In this case, neither side is really the "good guys", although Ukraine is clearly the less bad of the two, by a significant margin.
Having said that, if the EU grew a pair and engaged in the actions above things might look different. Trump might be a minor player, on the sidelines encouraging the EU to solve problems in Europe. What a concept.
This isn't the Cold War and Russia isn't the power that it used to be. Even this relatively small conflict has significantly strained the Russian economy and military. The EU (with support from the US) could absolutely stand against Russian aggression if needed.
The EU, for too long, has assumed that the US would (once again) come to their aid and spend massive amounts of money to defend Europe. To the point where it could be argued that the US defense spending for Europe allows the EU countries to cut their defense establishment and use that money for all the socialist goodies they pass out. Trump is absolutely right that Europe should pay their fair share (one time the DFL isn't howling about a fair share) for their own defense. The US should absolutely seek to minimize our military footprint in Europe and mostly limit it to propositioned equipment storage.
It's been 80 years since the end of WW2 and the US spent vast amounts of money rebuilding Europe and Japan after the war, along with building much of the materiel and equipment used by the Allies to win. Maybe it's time for Europe to stop depending on US taxpayers to subsidize them, and to stand up and deal with problems in their own backyard.
14 comments:
The dictator of Ukraine caused the war. We had no business spending money to help him.
I think that Putin sending armor across the Ukraine border might have played a role as well. There's plenty of blame to go around.
Much less money, much more accountability. Maybe send more materiel in order to get rid of/test older weapons, and replace those stocks with newer instead of sending money. Call it R/D or something. At least the money stays in the US.
But I agree that we shouldn't be particularly heavily involved.
What you've said and presented here pretty much aligns with most objections to our involvement in this conflict, as opposed to being pro-Putin as is usually the response.
Actually, Ukraine broke a treaty and was told by Putin that if he did so there would be an invasion:
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2024/03/russia_is_not_an_aggressor_and_ukraine_is_not_a_victim.html
It probably does. I think that part of the is that too many people view Zelensky as the "good" guy and Putin as the "bad" guy. I'm at the point of realizing that while Zelenski might be less "bad" than Putin, that neither of them are "good" guys. Obviously, the concern is for the civilians in Ukraine who are the ones really being harmed. Zelensky is doing fine and will be in Switzerland if things go badly with his money courtesy of the US taxpayer. If Trump can broker a deal that stops the war, great. If he does so by throwing Ukraine under the bus, not great.
It seems like an invasion, especially given Russia's desire for territory/ports in Ukraine might be a bit of an overreaction. If only there were other options than invasion.
Hence my point, that neither of them is the "good" guy and we should have as little involvement as possible.
With all of the hoopla around Trump trying to work on ending the war in Ukraine, it seems like Europe has dropped the ball once again.
Got it.
To you all, Europe has dropped the ball. NOT the communist dictator, Putin (since when have conservatives sided with communist tyrant dictators over an oppressed people??), but Europe. PUTIN is not a tyrant/dictator (according to you all)... Zelensky is. Putin INVADING another nation with deadly force is an "overreaction" and Zelensky is to blame for being invaded.
The new math in conservative circles.
I mean, it's not surprising that a sexual predator like Trump would so easily blame the victim, but I can't tell you how revolting for conservatives, writ large, would embrace the rapist-mindset.
Given the patriarchy and misogyny that has long been part of "conservatism," it's not especially surprising, but it is revolting, disgusting and awful how easily modern conservatives have embraced a tyrant, defending a tyrant and blaming the victims for their own oppression. Our European allies are the "bad guys" and the communist tyrant dictator/invader Putin is the good guy.
Do you all even listen to yourselves?
Do you all have no decency, sirs, at long last?
We see and history will judge you all accordingly.
Y'all can't embrace people behaving in an anti-human rights/anti-freedom manner and not expect comparisons to Nazis and other tyrants. We on the rational side of history are worried precisely because you all are behaving so much like the typical complacent Germans of the 1930s.
I get it, you didn't read the quote, thought it was me, and are responding to a caricature of the post not the actual post.
Yes, Europe has dropped the ball. Europe, particularly the EU is not some powerless entity with no responsibility in the world. They have economic power, military power, and diplomatic power. Of course they've also sold their souls to the environmentalist whackos and are shutting down their own ability to generate power and buying LNG from Russia. Which does give Russia some power, although I suspect that cutting off the income would probably cause Russia some harm.
With that said, I have to note that you must not have read the post and comments before you commented.
Speaking of revolting, do you think about how you sound before you post comments?
That all you have is bullshit talking points that have no relevance to this post, tells me you're just blowing smoke. It seems strange to hear you advocating for more war, more US weapons spending, unaccounted US spending to support Zelensky who's hardly a paragon of virtue, and violence in general. Trump is trying to end the war, yet Dan objects to ending the war and wants to prolong the war, apparently.
Our "European allies" are not the "bad guys" so much as they're the inaction guys. As per the quote I posted, the EU could actually end this war, cut Trump out, and get all the praise. Yet they won't. Is sitting by and watching a war that you could end, but don't even try to end, the behavior of a "good guy"?
No body is "defending tyrants", hell Biden/Harris prolonged the war, fed the military industrial complex, and made no serious attempts to stop the war. Trump jumps in immediately to stop the war, and y'all start bitching. I though y'all were the peace loving pacifists?
Speaking of which, why haven't you been advocating for Zelensky to use non violent resistance?
More than you listen to yourself, or read the posts you comment on.
I have enough decency to want the war to end, and to believe that the EU could act like grown ups and end the war, and cut Trump out entirely.
Yes, I'm sure "history" (which is no sentient) will judge Biden/Harris and those of you who supported this needless war for years and to the tune of billions of unaccounted for dollars, and for feeding the military industrial complex.
I think that the difference here is that you are looking at this through a partisan lens. You are so pissed that Trump might be able to do what Biden never attempted, that you're willing to go full warmonger to "own" Trump.
I don't see this as partisan at all. Had Biden accomplished anything but prolonging this war, I'd have supported him. If the EU wants to put on their big boy pants and stop the war, more power to them. If Trump needs to get it done, then great. The goal should be to stop the war, not score partisan points.
Given that your last paragraph begins with a flat out, blatant, intentional lie, I see no reason to dignify it with any further response.
When all you have is misrepresentations, and lies, maybe silence is the better choice.
I don't think any of us has said Putin isn't a dictator--that is a given. The point is that the USA has been supporting another dictator.
It's getting so that referring to Dan as a moron is no more than an insult to actual morons. His comment from February 20, 2025 at 12:46 PM is especially grace embracing in its vile hateful falseness. Dan isn't on the "rational" side of history because being a pervert, he perverts history as well. And this history isn't so ancient as to be difficult to investigate.
If there's anyone who cozies up to tyrants, despots and commies (same things), it's the "progressive" leftists, who see Castro as a favorable example, provide funding for Iran, and do get really tight with China.
Patriarchy and misogyny are not and never have been traits of the conservative. Dan once again proves how little he knows or understands conservatism.
One can find equal fault in both Putin and Zalensky and only assholes of the left would dare pretend it means we support Putin. Most support neither, though some think these two peas in a pod fighting each other means the rest of us are somehow threatened. The only way Putin is any kind of threat is if he decides to start lobbing nukes. But given he's not a muslim, he's not keen on nuclear retaliation, which is pretty much an automatic response.
Dan and his kind are far more akin to the communist dictators of the world than any true conservative is. That's just a fact, as all leftist leans in that direction. We saw plenty of despotic activity by the administration Dan regarded as better for America that Trump or the GOP (who even on their worst day isn't the threat to the United States Dan and his ilk are).
Yeah..."moron" just doesn't do Dan justice he deserves. Maybe we'll just call his type "Trabues" and know being called such is about as bad a pejorative or epithet one can imagine.
Well said, Craig. Very well said.
Referring to someone as a moron implies that they are not very intelligent. In Dan's case, I think that it's almost more of a willful thing with Dan.
It seems safe to say that both sides have engaged with tyrants at various time over the last 100 years. I think that the difference is that those on the right have done so to benefit the US and the world (US/Soviets in WW2), while those on the right tend to do so to benefit or support the tyrants (Maduro, Hamas, etc).
Obviously, finding fault in both Putin and Zelensky doesn't mean supporting Putin, it also doesn't mean prolonging a war that could be ended.
I don't think that it's irrational to refer to someone who's cancelled elections to stay in power as a dictator.
I can't say that I see Ukraine as a bastion of freedom that needs to be defended at all costs, and apparently neither do the members of the EU.
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