https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/14/523917425/michigan-doctor-charged-with-performing-female-genital-mutilation-on-girls
"Female genital mutilation constitutes a particularly brutal form of violence against women and girls. It is also a serious federal felony in the United States," Daniel Lemisch, acting U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, said in a statement. "The practice has no place in modern society and those who perform FGM on minors will be held accountable under federal law."
This is barbaric, and inhuman. But the argument they are making is that they are very committed to their religion. So a Christian family that wants to home school is evil and damaging their kids, but FGM is simply a benign religious practice.
43 comments:
The worst the Christian parent does is see psychological counseling to help their child get through his/her LGBTQ++++ disorder.
Absolutely, facilitating counseling for a child that struggles with ABC stuff is the most heinous violence possible, but this evil practice is protected religious expression.
Craig:
So a Christian family that wants to home school is evil and damaging their kids, but FGM is simply a benign religious practice.
Says who? I don't know anyone outside of these cultures that do this who say it's benign. Certainly not any progressives.
The AMA condemns it.
https://policysearch.ama-assn.org/policyfinder/detail/female%20genital%20mutilation?uri=%2FAMADoc%2FHOD.xml-0-4716.xml
The UN condemns it.
https://www.un.org/en/observances/female-genital-mutilation-day
WHO condemns it.
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/female-genital-mutilation
The APA condemns it.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2017/05/victims
I've never heard anyone dismiss this as a "benign religious practice."
Again, I suspect that the only ones who say that are those "Muslims, Christians, Ethiopian Jews, and followers of certain traditional African religions" who practice it (quote from your story).
No. Progressives are opposed to cultural or religious practices that involve harming a child. Practices like FGM and "conversion therapy." Join us in opposing faux medical/psychological religious and cultural practices that actively harm children?
"Says who? I don't know anyone outside of these cultures that do this who say it's benign. Certainly not any progressives."
1. Are you seriously unaware of the anti home school folks out there?
2. When you say "certainly not any", it is automatically false.
"I've never heard anyone dismiss this as a "benign religious practice.""
That's because you didn't pay attention to the argument being made by the defense attorney.
"Join us in opposing faux medical/psychological religious and cultural practices that actively harm children?"
I've written extensively on these sorts of practices, and the two tiered justice system that protects those who engage in them. But if you want to get on board with harsh/appropriate sentences for those who rape and advocate the rape of children, go right ahead.
I'm simply pointing out that, given recent history, it is likely that the "it's only a religious practice" defense could well result in an acquittal.
I can only hope you'll vociferously oppose that result if it happens.
Let's not forget that this case is being brought in MI, which increases the chances that the jury will be composed of a significant amount of Muslims. Given what we've seen from Muslims in MI, it's safe to say that Muslim jurors will prioritize Sharia over US law inn their deliberations.
"No. Progressives are opposed to cultural or religious practices that involve harming a child."
Except abortion. Progressives will murder the unborn all day long.
Absolutely on abortion, and I'd include immigration policies as well, as thousands of European children have been finding out of late, and at least one MPLS child learned recently.
I would as well, but as we've been seeing, Dan can't bring himself to express concern for foreign nations, preferring to pretend he cares about what happens here or because of our government. He does all this while defending abortion and nothing belies his claim of "progressive" opposition to "cultural or religious practices that involve harming a child" than that.
Given his vitriolic rhetoric about Israel and his peddling of false narratives around the entire Arab/Israel conflict in general and Gaza specifically, along with his rhapsodic paeans to the wonderfulness of Islam, I find it hard to take his "I don't spend a lot of time worrying about stuff overseas." shtick seriously. Like so many of Dan's things, his concern for "overseas" stuff seems driven by how much what he gets worked up about fits his narrative. Like his unwavering support for Biden, despite that fact that Biden's policy regarding the hostages and Gaza was based on bullshit and left US citizens to suffer at the hands of Hamas and the UNRWA. His virtual silence on the two tiered "justice system" and the increasing in women and girls being denied basic human rights under Sharia and the "trans" agenda, belies his commitment to his alleged principles as well.
Craig...
"Given his vitriolic rhetoric about Israel and his peddling of false narratives around the entire Arab/Israel conflict in general and Gaza specifically, along with his rhapsodic paeans to the wonderfulness of Islam..."
Where have I ever said anything like all of... that?
Answer: I haven't.
Unless you think me saying: Israel should not kill children" is somehow vitriolic.
Deeply weird, how you read into my words things I've never said.
Craig...
Given his vitriolic rhetoric about Israel and his peddling of false narratives around the entire Arab/Israel conflict in general and Gaza specifically, along with his rhapsodic paeans to the wonderfulness of Islam
I wonder if you can even articulate an accurate representation of what you think I said that could be considered, "vitriolic rhetoric " about Israel?
The only thing I can think of is that I agree with many legal scholars, including Jewish experts, that the actions of Israel are criminal and almost certainly war crimes. Do you consider simply agreeing with people about the violence of killing thousands of innocent people is violent rhetoric??
This is part of the problem with yall. You're trying to bully peopleinto agreeing with your perspectives saying, in effect, you must agree with US or else you're a violent antisemite.
We're simply legitimately concerned about innocent bystanders and the harm that is done to both innocent Palestinians AND Israel itself. And we believe in the rule of law against the killing of innocent people.
We, of course, condemn Hamas, too, for their violence. That we call out criminal actions on both/all sides is just being even-handed and concerned about justice for all.
Likewise for your irrational claims about what you think I've said about Islam and Muslims. Noting that Muslims, like Christians, represent a range of views. We should oppose Muslims, Christians, Jews and others who promote actions and policies counter to human rights, while supporting and being allies with those in support of human rights.
That's just being consistent.
Really? You've never accused Israel of "war crimes" and "atrocities", never pushed the "starvation/famine" narrative? Never?
Strange that you specify that you only hold Israel to the "not kill children" standard, while not a word about Hamas/Gaza/Kidnapping/Torturing/Using children for human shields/Diverting aid from children to Hamas.
"I agree with many legal scholars, including Jewish experts"
Well, your LEFTIST scholars and God-denying Jewish "experts" contradict the factual information and actual scholars and God-fearing Jews. But, then, YOU are a LEFTIST farce yourself!
I don't need to, all I need to do is to simply go back and copy/paste what you actually said. The problem is that the "war crimes"narrative has fallen victim to the facts, while the well documented war crimes of Hamas are excused, ignored, or minimized.
Coming from someone who calls those who disagree with his all sorts of hateful things (racist, NAZI, evil), it's amusing to hear that you think that pointing out reality is bullying. (It is now well documented that the rate of casualties among "innocent" civilians in Gaza is far below the Geneva Conventions threshold), and it is equally well documented that the "famine" was caused by Hamas withholding aid, rather than Israel preventing aid to enter. That Hamas' entire strategy was based entirely on war crimes, and that they were very publicly up front about their strategy, seems to have slipped past you. That your parroting Hamas talking points is exactly the response that Hamas wanted from liberals, seems relevant at this point as well.
The problem, as demonstrated in this very comment thread, is that you specifically call out Israel, while never mentioning Hamas.
If you would actually oppose Muslims who are violating human rights with the same vehemence you blast Christians and Jews, I might believe you. Unfortunately, you don't. But if silence on Muslim violations of human rights, in the US can't get you motivated, the chance that you'll do so when those actions are elsewhere is likely to be close to zero.
I'll note that I've posted volumes of news stories and data from various governments regarding the violations of human rights (not to mention actual crimes), massive fraud, oppression, genocide, rape, and violence, and you've chosen not to even express a cursory bit of criticism. If posting news stories about the actions of Muslims is "irrational". then I simply have no hope for you.
I'll give you credit though, you are consistent in your lack of engagement with vile actions by Muslims and the Muslim clerics and leaders that justify them.
It's enough to point out that this is Dan engaging in the logical fallacy of appealing to anonymous experts, and ignoring the most recent actual analysis. By the standard in the Geneva Conventions, and considering than urban warfare is the most difficult type of warfare to minimize civilian casualties, Israel conducted an exemplary campaign. Folx like Dan choose to ignore the demonstrated reality, believe the Hamas propaganda and support harm to civilians.
Craig, irrationally and contrary to reality, said:
If you would actually oppose Muslims who are violating human rights with the same vehemence you blast Christians and Jews, I might believe you.
I condemn ALL THOSE who are deliberately making choices that cause harm and death to innocent people. I condemn MUSLIMS when they do it. I condemn JEWS when they do it. I condemn Christians or those claiming Christianity when they do it.
That's just the reality of it all. You've never once seen me say, "Well, but those Hamas people when they attacked and killed innocent people, that's okay."
That's just a quite weird fantasy that people like you appear to have just imagined out of thin air and in spite of reality.
I can't help you there, my man.
Experts and legal experts pointing out what is obvious to people who aren't even experts because it's just not hard to see, IF you don't have a partisan blindness hardening your heart.
Israeli human rights organizations, B’Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel, who have now declared unequivocally that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza and calling for international intervention. We commend their courage in naming what countless legal experts, humanitarian agencies and eyewitnesses have documented for months: this is not merely a “war,” this is a campaign of extermination.
https://www.justiceforall.org/palestine/justice-for-all-statement-on-btselem-and-physicians-for-human-rights-israels-genocide-declaration/
and...
https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/10/1166201
and...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/01/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-worlds-top-scholars-on-the-say
and...
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8641wv0n4go
and I could go on and on. It's not like I'm making this up or that there's a vast anti-semitic conspiracy of world legal experts and human rights scholars and groups just making it up. We think the evidence is there that Israel has engaged in crimes. JUST AS HAMAS has.
And I don't know how many times I have to repeat it, but of course, HAMAS has also engaged in human rights violations. Since they're not an actual state, I don't know that it counts as war crimes, but they have certainly killed, raped and caused harm and committed atrocities, AND THEY TOO, were wrong and should be held accountable.
I don't know why you all have such a problem with simple consistency or, even if you ultimately disagree, with recognizing the people like me and ALLLL these legal experts are NOT anti-semitic... we're just genuinely consistently opposed to people killing and harming innocent people!
GOD, have mercy!
Craig:
The problem is that the "war crimes"narrative has fallen victim to the facts, while the well documented war crimes of Hamas are excused, ignored, or minimized.
NO. The problem is that JUST BECAUSE you and those like you insist that we must defer to YOUR PERSONAL human preferences and you all REALLLLLLLLLLY WISH in your own heads that WE would agree with you and ONLY blame Hamas and any HINT of saying Israel has also done wrong can not stand or be abided because YOU REALLLY don't want people to disagree with you... Just because you think all that in your heads on this matter does NOT mean that anyone is ignoring the crimes of Hamas.
Indeed, we are consistently insisting that ALL those who harm innocent people should be held accountable. Whether it's Israel, Hamas, the US, Iran or whoever. It is NOT okay to deliberately kill innocent people and we are consistent on that point.
Does pointing out your own inconsistency and presumption make us bad people because you REALLY wish we wouldn't?
Be rational. We invite you to join us who are consistently opposed to ALL harm of innocent people.
That you can find some far right people who agree with your opinions and who might say that Israel is entirely blameless does not mean that all experts agree with those little, inconsistent opinions.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, I get it you "condemn" all of things in some vague, bland, and general way while reserving your specific and vitriolic condemnation for only things that fit your narrative.
I'll give you a single example. I've posted repeatedly about a fine gentleman fro MPLS who kidnapped and raped a 12 year old girl. His mosque appealed for leniency because he was such a fine upstanding human being, and he got an incredibly lenient sentence. You've had multiple opportunities to show your outrage at this situation and the injustice of it, specifically. You choose to hide behind this vague, bland, milquetoast, general, blather.
I get it. What I have heard you say, repeatedly and even in this thread is, some version of "Israel committed war crimes", without acknowledging those committed by Hamas or acknowledging the current situation in Hamas.
Coming from someone who spends so much time in a fantasy world, while insisting that your fantasies are reality, I'm not sure what to do with that.
I'll allow the "my man" this time because it's borderline, but from here on out, it will get aborted.
What a bizarre notion. The population of Gaza INCREASES after the unprovoked attack by Hamas, and "genocide" is magically redefined. Muslims are actively engaging in real genocide as we type, and this is what you're all worked up about.
1. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza, but nice excuse to let them off of the "war crimes" hook. Excellent semantic games. But to play along, let's call them egregious human rights violations or crimes against humanity. Let's also ignore the fact that Hamas is now killing and mutilating Gazans without any specific condemnation from you.
I prize consistency in these things, unfortunately I don't see any from you or the UN or ICC. UNRWA employees were ACTIVELY participating in holding HOSTAGES and mistreating/torturing them, yet no outcry from you and no response from the UN.
You say than, but only get loud and vitriolic when it's Israel. Muslims raping and killing in the name of Islam with plenty of Islamic scholars justifying their actions, and Dan meekly stays quiet on those specifics.
Well, that is quote the emphatic assertion of something completely false. Shocking Dan uses a straw man again. I've been posting on this regularly for months. Hamas casualty figures, false. Hamas claims of famine, false (even the US finally acknowledged after the cease fire that Gaza had plenty of food. Casualty rates, compared to the limits established by the Geneva Conventions, historically low. % of casualties in Gaza that were "innocent civilians" much lower than reported.
That you've chosen to ignore months of data, is your problem, not mine. The news stories are there, the data is readily available to you, all you have to do is find it yourself.
Again, I welcome you to actually demonstrate your consistency by being as loudly vocal about the real genocide in Africa, the thousands of rapes in Europe, the oppression in Hamtramck and Dearborn MI, and the justice system that is more lenient to Muslims than non Muslims.
Show your courage. Look up what I've posted about, flood your FB feed and blog with specific condemnations of these things. Condemn Hamas for killing and mutilating their own people. Speak up, let some of the vitriol you reserve for Israel and "conservatives" loose on Muslims and Liberals instead of hiding behind these vague, bland, perfunctory, general, milquetoast, weak "commendations".
Oh, how about an acknowledgement that Islam is incredibly oppressive and has a horrible track record on human rights and slavery in 202%?
Craig, missing the point, still/again, said:
That you've chosen to ignore months of data, is your problem, not mine.
Look, you can post whatever little theories and conjectures and bits of "news" from whatever "sources" you might want to post. One thing you'll have to realize is:
1. I don't read everything you write and am just not that interested in everything you write.
2. I'm not unique in that.
3. When your "source" is something you found from someone on "x," I don't even bother. SURE, maybe whoever you're "citing" from "x" might be looking at actual data, BUT, if there's actual data, you should source the data, not "x."
4. See 1 and 2.
This comes down to YOU citing things that you think in your head are "proof" and ME listening to actual known entities and news sources like the UN, the ICC, actual media stations, Human Rights organizations and these, all with experts and scholars, legal experts and knowledgeable people from a wide spectrum of backgrounds and identities, including Jewish and Muslim folks and experts.
That I "dare" to trust them more than you and your "x" sources should not be surprising and ISN'T surprising to rational adults.
I read and listen to all sorts of data and ultimately, I just don't find you and your sources to be trustworthy or, at least, telling the whole story. And again, when one's source consistently finds fault with ONLY one group when clearly, Israel and its Muslim neighbors have been fighting for decades with ALL involved sometimes committing documented atrocities, when one says that Israel is always pure and clean and it's the dirty brown muslims that are always at fault, that makes that source less-than-credible.
Again, I and those like me are consistently on the side of the innocents who are being harmed unjustly, whoever is doing the harming. We are consistent. You are not. I'm listening to experts across the board. You're listening to pro-Israel/pro-conservative sources.
I disagree with your sources because the data doesn't support them.
Show your courage. Look up what the experts who are not pro-conservative are saying. WATCH the actual legitimate journalist news and see the death and destruction caused by both parties and recognize, as my dear sainted conservative mother would say, "it takes two to tango."
Craig, missing the point, said:
1. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza, but nice excuse to let them off of the "war crimes" hook.
But Palestine famously is NOT a nation, thanks to the efforts of conservatives and the Israeli gov't. I'm noting the reality that I don't THINK non-nation entities can be charged with war crimes. I'm not a legal expert (nor are you), but I think that's correct.
According to AI (and other sources I read, but AI is concise):
"No, a non-nation entity (like a terrorist group or corporation) cannot be charged with war crimes, as international law holds individuals responsible for war crimes"
And, as you may know if you pay attention to history, Gaza is NOT a sovereign nation, it is an occupied state, occupied by Israel whose current leadership famously does NOT want them to be a sovereign state.
Understand now?
Craig:
I've posted repeatedly about a fine gentleman fro MPLS who kidnapped and raped a 12 year old girl. His mosque appealed for leniency because he was such a fine upstanding human being, and he got an incredibly lenient sentence. You've had multiple opportunities to show your outrage at this situation and the injustice of it, specifically. You choose to hide behind this vague, bland, milquetoast, general, blather.
WHAT?!! I haven't slavishly followed everyone of your "x" posts and may not have heard or read about some incident that you allege has happened? Well, what in the name of all that is holy is wrong with me!! I SHOULD be reading EVERY post and EVERY news story from EVERY blogger and EVERY news source (journalists and others) and commenting on EVERY THING EVERYWHERE ALL AT ONCE!
Man, have some grace. No one, not even the mighty/almighty Craig, is talking about every wrong that is done. YOU, for instance, have decided to focus most of your concern on only when Christians are being harmed (or some Jews... the right Jews!) Well, and not the LGBTQ Christians being harmed, you won't post on them.
The point is, no one comments on everything. THAT is why it's helpful to have consistent positions and stances. Me, for instance... I am consistently opposed to ANY harm to ANY innocent humans. So, while I may not comment on an instance when a trans girl is beaten up at school or when a Jewish family experiences some abuses by a Muslim or vice versa... but you can rest assured that I AM opposed to all harm to all innocents by any oppressors/abusers. That's where consistency helps. You just don't have to wonder.
You, on the other hand, are you always opposed to ALL instances of one human owning another? Are you always opposed to all instances of deliberately firing weapons and bombs where innocent people are located?
I am and you know why? Because I'm consistently opposed to all harm to innocent people.
You? I don't know. You tell me. Given that you are not willing to call the deaths of 60,000 + deaths of Palestinians (including children) at the hands of Israel and its policies atrocities by Israel, I don't know if you are consistently opposed to all harm of innocents. I suspect you're willing to blame Israel's intentional killings/harm on the Gazans or on Hamas, even when it was Israel's actions.
I think you're willing to blame Japan for the US killing hundreds of thousands at Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
Me? I'm consistent. I'm opposed to ALL of it, no matter who's doing the harm to innocents.
Nothing surprises me when the LEFT abuses the word "genocide." Right now the only genocide in the world is by Muslims against Christians and Jews. Islam will always be that way and that is the foundation of Muslim teaching--the eradication of of Christians and Jews. Anyone who has studied even the least amount of history, especially of Islam, KNOWS THIS!
Nor should it surprise you when the Left abuses words to redefine things.
The Israeli response to the depredations of Hamas, Hezbollah, or Iran has historically been to want to get rid of those groups, or negotiate with them. The historic response of those groups has been to want to wipe Israel from the face of the earth. The current actual genocide involves Muslims slaughtering or enslaving Christians by the thousands simply because they are Christians. I could be wrong, but I'd think that killing or enslaving people because of their religion would be a violation of their human rights. Maybe it's just Muslims engaging in self determination instead.
Yeah because the MSM sources I've used somehow don't meet your high standards. Because you've bitched, whined, and moaned, I've been careful to post plenty of links to what you would consider "real" journalists, actual government data, or links with actual video from "real" news sources. That this is your opening gambit, tells me that you are relying on your prejudices, and ignorance, rather than evidence. FYI, if I post a link to the official CNN Twitter page, that's a CNN story not a Twitter story.
1. That is perfectly fine. You are free to choose to be ignorant about what is happening out in the real wordl beyond your insular little bubble. However, that yu choose to ignore what I post does not excuse your ignorance, nor require me to re post what I've already posted because you're finally confronted with relaity.
2. No, but you are unique in using your choice to be ignorant as an excuse.
3. You know what they say, ignorance is bliss and Dan just keeps confirming that Truth. When you assume, you make an ass of you, and only you in this case. As also noted, when I post a link to Twitter that contains a CNN video or a link to the official CNN account, that is literally posting direct from CNN. I get your irrational bias against things that don't come from sources you consider safe. Heaven forbid you look beyond your bubble.
4. Dan posts 4 bullet points that are basically just repeating the same thing as if he actually had 4 separate points. How narcissistic and arrogant does it get to revel in your ignorance like that.
This "comes down" to me citing MSM and offcial governmental data, that you allow your prejudices to lead you to arrogantly assume otherwise, and to assert your ignorance as if it is fact, is absolutely hilarious.
You probably should have stopped quite a while ago. Maybe after you acknowledged that yo don't pay attention to anything that might expose your to something you disagree with.
What a bizarre concept. You brag about not reading or paying attention to my "sources", make unproven assumptions about my "sources", and use your ignorance to make all sorts of false claims, and being proud of your ignorance.
For example, are you aware that UNICEF is a part of the UN, and that UNICEF just reported that the Gaza famine isn't real? Is that the kind of sources you rely on? Because an organization the UN, which runs the UNRWA, is going to be up front about UNRWA employees holding Hamas hostages, right?
You're just free associating with unfounded projections at this point.
When I post government data from the Netherlands regarding the havoc that immigrants have wreaked on their country, is not the government of the Netherlands expert enough for you?
You proudly admit ignorance about my "sources" (MSM outlets and governments), then proudly and definitively claim that the "data doesn't support them". I've never seen someone so proud of their ignorance, and prejudice.
But you double down on your ignorance and continue to revel in your prejudice.
Dan, actually missing the point while hiding behind his magical incantation, makes himself look stupid here.
Palestine is not/has not/ and never was a "nation". Gaza is a national entity ruled by Hamas, and the West Bank is a national entity ruled by the Palestinian authority. Israel left both of those areas years ago.
Fine, then acknowledge their actions as crimes against humanity or whatever semantic game you want to play. Of course by making this the basis of your excuse to not hold Hamas accountable. you also acknowledge that neither Gaza nor Hamas is a signatory of the Geneva Conventions and is not protected by them. That Hamas is clearly not bound the the Geneva Conventions goes without saying and is on display, that they somehow want to hold Israel accountable to a standard they don't live by, is eerily similar to how you expect us to live up to standards you don't hold yourself to.
That lobbing unguided rockets at civilians, sending suicide bombers into civilian areas, raping, killing, and kidnapping innocent civilians are heinous crimes by any standard except Islam. That you need to play semantic games, instead of harshly condemn these actions, speaks volumes.
Because I pay attention to history I do know that Gaza is not "occupied" in any sense of the word. Prior to 10/7 Israel had completely removed every trace of Israeli settlement (including graveyards because they knew Hamas would desecrate the graves and remains) and 100% turned Gaza over to Gazans.
I've always had a better understanding of the Arab/Israeli conflict than you have and your regurgitating Hamas propaganda demonstrates that.
The "occupied" area they are referring to is Israel not Gaza.
FYI, the "reason Palestine is not a nation" has nothing to do with Israel or conservatives. When the partition was finalized for 1948, the "Palestinians" got Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria as Arab/Muslim countries. There has never been a nation of Palestine nor was a nation of Palestine even an option during the negotiations that led up to the partition. That the Arabs negotiated in bad faith and planned to take through conquest and slaughter what they didn't get through negotiations is undisputed.
I do understand now. Hamas would be very proud of you for blindly repeating their propaganda.
The problem with your vehement excuses is that you literally interacted on one of the posts about this story. Another problem is that my sources on this story are almost entirely local news stations, the STrib, and other news organizations. But that's OK, I'll give you grace due to your willful ignorance ad arrogant response.
Meanwhile, a 12 year old girl was kidnapped and raped. The fine, upstanding gentleman get lauded for his high character by his mosque, and the progressive "justice system" gave him an incredibly light sentence. Yet you're making excuses and false accusations. Be better and rightly condemn this miscarriage of "justice" by progressives and Muslims.
To borrow your evergreen excuse, I am one man and am limited in what I write about and interact with. So when I hear about some ABC christians who don't get exactly what they wanted whine about their first world problems, I might not invest as much time in that as I do when a "trans" kid shoots a bunch of children because they're Christians. But feel free to project your willful ignorance on me if it helps you feel better to insulate yourself from things you'd prefer not to confront.
Your selective outrage when it comes to harm isn't a great look.
I've addressed the slavery thing ad nauseam and note that you are more upset about slavery to pay off debts from thousands of years ago, than the thriving slave trade in the Islamic world in 2025.
Yes, I am "willing" to place the responsibility for Hiroshima and Nagasaki where it belongs, because I've studied the history and know that the Japanese CHOSE not to surrender after being warned about the consequences. Then after one bomb, they doubled down and were responsible for the dropping of the second bomb. Exactly like Hamas, Japan had the ability to have prevented every bit of destruction to their home islands. The difference is that I don't consider those who aggressively pursue war to be innocent.
Craig:
Fine, then acknowledge their actions as crimes against humanity or whatever semantic game you want to play.
How many different ways must I say, "IT IS WRONG AND AN ATROCITY TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE" for you to understand my point. It was wrong when some in Hamas (which is NOT a nation so it's not a war crime, by legal definition... why not just admit that much??) killed innocent people on Oct 7 and it's been wrong when they've done it since. AND it is wrong (and probably a real war crime) when Israel has done it, and a war crime according to legal scholars and experts.
Why not just join me in condemning ALL violent attacks against innocent people? Why not just be consistent, like me and folks like me?
I knew it, you just cannot do it.
You literally have to double down on your idiotic "not a nation" nonsense.
According to Wiki...
"he Gaza Strip, also known simply as Gaza, is the smaller of the two Palestinian territories (the other being the West Bank) that make up the State of Palestine in the Southern Levant region of West Asia."
Apparently Wiki disagrees with you. But let's play your semantic games for a moment. Gaza is it's own political entity, it is governed by Hamas as a result of one election @20 years ago. Hamas is the de facto governing body of Gaza. I know your obsessed, with your fine legal mind, with this alleged distinction without a difference, but what does the old Google say?
"Yes, a non-governmental entity can commit war crimes
. International humanitarian law applies to non-state armed groups, and individuals within these groups can be held accountable for war crimes committed during non-international armed conflicts. The focus is on individual criminal responsibility, not the responsibility of the entity itself.
Application of international law: International humanitarian law applies to all participants in a conflict, including both states and non-state armed groups.
Individual responsibility: The responsibility for war crimes lies with the individuals who commit them, not the abstract entity they belong to. This includes combatants and civilians who commit acts in violation of the laws of war.
Examples of war crimes by non-state actors: Groups like Hamas have been accused of committing war crimes, such as murdering civilians, taking hostages, and using civilians as human shields, according to The Conversation.
Accountability: Individuals can be prosecuted for war crimes, even if they are not members of a state's military. This includes being prosecuted for conspiracy, being an accomplice, or attempting to commit a war crime."
I could post multiple other links, but it's pretty clear that "INDIVIDUALS" can be prosecuted for "war crimes", as can non state entities.
Your obsession with absolving Hamas/Gaza of "war crimes" with your semantic games, while accusing Israel of "real war crime"s is exactly my point.
That Hamas is indisputably guilty of what are defined as "war crimes" under the Geneva Convention is beyond question. Rape, murder, kidnapping, holding hostages, placing military facilities in hospitals/mosques/schools, using human shields, indiscriminately firing unguided rockets into civilian areas, and the use of suicide bombers. That no one on your side is advocating for these crimes to be prosecuted, or for Hamas to be removed from power, y'all are de facto supporting Hamas and it's crimes.
I don't "join you" because I don't live in a simplistic fantasy world.
I can distinguish the difference between lobbing hundreds of unguided rockets at civilian areas, and using precision guided weapons to target specific combatants of military targets that might have s small amount of collateral damage because Hamas uses human shields.
I can distinguish between a country (Japan) or Terrorist group (Hamas) who make the intentional choice to harm their civilians because it's good PR for them.
I can look at the actual data and see that the IDF did an exemplary job of minimizing civilian casualties in an urban combat setting, where doing so is more difficult.
Your problem as the your "condemnation" is selective based on who is committing the "violent attacks". When you treat someone saying something that is factually True, and an unguided rocket attack the same you call into question your ability to compare the relative harm caused.
I'll simply note how much you ignored to focus on this semantic distinction. That I had already agreed that the term "war crime" wasn't a hard and fast term that I was committed to, seems to have slipped your mind entirely.
Call Hamas actions, war crimes, crimes against humanity, crimes, murder, rape, kidnapping, torture, whatever you want. Just stop with the false equivalency and the false claims.
To be clear, we know that UNRWA (part of the UN) was actively involved in the holding and mistreatment of the Israeli hostages, are you seriously arguing that the UN is not complicit in those crimes?
Regarding your certain accusation of UNRWA staff and the claim that "the UN is complicit in these crimes..."
That IS certainly an accusation. I've seen no proof to support that claim. The UN did an investigation and found:
With respect to the remaining nine cases, the evidence obtained by OIOS indicated that the UNRWA staff members
may have been involved in the 7 October attacks.
UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini issued a statement acknowledging the completion of the probe.
“I have decided that
in the case of these remaining nine staff members,
they cannot work for UNRWA.
All contracts of these staff members will be terminated in the interest of the Agency,” he said.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/08/1152841
Also:
The U.N. condemned “the abhorrent alleged acts” and fired nine of the accused workers, who include teachers and a social worker. Two are reportedly dead, and the last is still being identified...
The accusations come after years of tensions between Israel and the agency known as UNRWA over its work in Gaza, where it employs roughly 13,000 people.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/document-spells-out-allegations-against-12-un-employees-israel-says-participated-in-oct-7-hamas-attack
While there was not proof for any kind of indictments, it appears, there was sufficient concern that they fired nine staff members of UNRWA. That is the UN being accountable, is it not, and transparent and responsive to these concerns (even if they couldn't be proven), NOT of them being "complicit" as you accuse.
Also, it should be noted (if I'm reading it correctly), UNRWA employed 13,000 people and NINE were found to have perhaps engaged in wrong-doing.
I wonder if the Southern Baptist Convention could make that boast? (No, I don't. We KNOW that the SBC doesn't have that kind of clean record amongst its employees!
Side reference, just to show how it's done:
"The report found roughly 380 clergy, lay leaders and volunteers had faced allegations of sexual misconduct," ~Wiki)
I can find no news story or other sources that suggest otherwise.
I suspect you're reading far right or rightwing Israeli sources that are exaggerating matters and you're inclined to believe and repeat the accusations. As always, if you have some kind of proof, present it.
If not, however, do the right thing and withdraw your accusation and apologize for, at the least, overstating the case.
One thing Dan makes clear is that he's never studied REAL history and relies on MSM propaganda for all his knowledge of world history. He is so wrapped up in his perverse ideology promoting every perversion of human sexuality as well as his re-interpretation of Scripture that he proves to be nothing but a pawn of Satan. He claims he doesn't hate but he demonstrates his hatred for Israel and Jews. He loves and defends Muslims because he knows "peaceful' ones--except they are only peaceful until they have control. They lie about being friends until in control. I've read the Quran and no Muslim should be trust for anything.
Why would anyone care about history, when the propaganda is so much easier and more available?
ABsolutely, why would you believe the testimony of the actual hostages held by UNRWA staff in UNRAW buildings.
That the UNRWA seems to have cleaned house to some degree is a good first step.
By all means make up things as a way to ignore reports. That you literally confirmed enough UNRWA support of Hamas to justify firings seems to make my point. One wonders what would be found in the investigation was done by an external agency with no preexisting biases.
This notion that "I can't find" equals some bizarre kind of objective proof, is one more example of your narcissism, and arrogance. I've posted my sources in various posts. If you find one that is factually wrong, let me know.
Craig, missing the point, said:
This notion that "I can't find" equals some bizarre kind of objective proof, is one more example of your narcissism, and arrogance.
You see, this is the problem with conspiracy theories and those who advocate them.
You are talking about the UN. Think about that. YOU are making a claim that the UNITED NATIONS, a sprawling, global entity that is dedicated to defending human rights (and does so imperfectly, of course, but still, that's their purpose and HOW they do their work, generally)... you are making a completely unsupported claim that the UNITED NATIONS is "complicit in those crimes" of aiding in kidnapping and terrorism...
!!!
THINK about what you are saying?
IF that were the case (an unproven IF, right now), and
IF it was true that " we know that UNRWA" - and the UN, according to you - was involved in these crimes
THEN that "known" news would be out there everywhere. A simple Google search would show a resort from multiple sources about the shocking news that THE UNITED NATIONS was complicit in kidnapping and terrorism!!
And yet, a quick search turned up no such news. No Criminal Court charges against the UN. Nothing.
The ONLY thing that turned up is the UN noting that there were concerns raised, that they investigated and found 9 out of 13,000 people employed by UNRWA MAY have been involved in illegal and improper actions AND that the UN found that it could not be proven, but was troubling enough to fire those NINE individuals who, IF it were true, were clearly acting outside the bounds of the UN's mission. And again, we do not KNOW that it is true, in spite of your confidence in your alleged sources OR your understanding of your alleged sources.
Do you understand?
You've made a wild, spectacular claim that WOULD be awful, IF it were true. But that you in your head really think that you "know" that the UN is "implicated" - again, THE UNITED NATIONS, an outfit dedicated to the fight for human rights - does not make it reality. You see, Craig, not everyone trusts your opinion. I don't, I'm sorry to say. I trust that you intend to be a good man and are genuinely against kidnapping and terrorism (as am I, as, no doubt, are the people at the UN), but when you make wildly outlandish and unbelievable claims, the onus is on YOU to provide support AND failing that, to withdraw your wild claims and apologize for speaking out of turn... for gossiping and slander, two actions which the biblical authors make clear are outside of the Realm of God.
YES, if you're making an accusation (being an Accuser, so to speak) of a WILD, WIDE conspiracy against whole groups of people whose life mission is working for human rights, and you're saying you "know" that the UN is implicated" in human rights abuses, then a rational adult responding with, "I don't see any support for this "known human rights abuse" charge" is the opposite of narcissism... it's just responsible adulting and responsible news consumption. It IS objective proof that a quick search doesn't turn up what you claim to be true and THAT sort of story, IF it were known, would be all over the place.
It's almost certainly not known but, having done my due diligence and finding the claim unlikely and spurious, the onus is on you to support it. It would indeed be narcissistic to assume everyone should just believe you cause you said so.
Do you see?
And Craig, if you respond with anything other than, "Fine, here's a legal source or a legitimate journalistic operation that has reported that we KNOW that the UN has been implicated in human rights abuses..." then you're missing the point. If you say, "But I posted a link to Bob who I read on X who was talking about this newspaper in Iowa that had an opinion piece that said..." then you're missing the point. It is a HUGE and dangerous claim to say that a human rights operation like the UN has directly engaged in or lent support to kidnappers and terrorists. IF you're saying it's a Known thing, then demonstrate actual data.
IF you're saying, "Well, to me, they have not acted harshly enough against Hamas and some tiny portion of this separate outfit, UNRWA has possibly engaged in supporting kidnappers," then say that.
I'm just trying to stick to known facts and keep partisan bias out of it as much as possible. Especially when there's possible dangerous slander and conspiracy theoryin' happening.
The most egregious of Dan's libel against Israel is the the ambiguity of suggesting righteous military operations equate to war crimes simply because of collateral damage which is next to impossible to avoid when the enemy hides behind and launches attacks from behind civilians (some of whom may be proud to serve as martyrs for the bloodthirsty islamic cause, others forced into the role and others merely being in the way).
But if Dan were to provide evidence of a real war crime perpetrated by Israelis, it would most likely be that of a more lone wolf type of Israeli, rather than a "genocidal, despotic oppressor" nation. I can accept that such fed up Israelis actually exist, and they may seek revenge according to their own notions of retribution. But even then, that notion is more likely than not compelled by the savage barbarity of islamic common practice.
"I condemn ALL THOSE who are deliberately making choices that cause harm and death to innocent people."
Except for abortionists. Dan loves him some abortionists. Don't touch abortion.
Yes, I am repeating the news stories that document the fact that UNRWA employees were actively involved in the "war crimes" committed on 10/7 and following. As the first two letters of UNRWA are UN, one could guess that there might be a connection between the two. I, strangely enough, believe in the notion that those in control of an organization are responsible for the actions engaged in under the organizational banner.
That the UNRWA has a long and checkered history of problematic conduct doesn't help matters.
But really, excellent pivot, nicely done. Too bad about the 4.9 from the East German judge. You choose to spin this fantasy that I'm just making shit up out of thin air as if I didn't have a two year history of posting on this topic with sources ranging from your beloved MSM, to various governments. You've convinced yourself that if I post a Twitter link to a CNN video that the medium invalidates the message. I understand why you've chosen to impose these arbitrary limits on where Truth can be found on yourself, but not why you think you can impose those limits on others. You bitch and moan about my links not being "real" journalism, so I jump through your hoop, and you act is if I haven't. If you choose ignorance, that is your problem, not mine.
Why would a group working for "human rights" put representatives of countries with abysmal "human rights" records in charge of "human rights" committees?
Let's compare/contrast a bit on "human rights", shall we?
Who has the better record of protecting "humans rights", things like freedom of speech/religion, ABC folx rights, women's rights, or minority rights.
Gaza, Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, Saudi, Lebanon, Syria, Sudan, Nigeria, or Israel?
Compare the Jewish/Christian population growth/decline in Iraq, Iran, Saudi, to that of Christian/Muslim population in Israel.
I do see. I also see that I have posted multiple times on this. Your laziness is not my problem.
Dan,
1. You don't get to make demands here.
2. I've already done so multiple times over the past two years.
3. I've played your game of providing sources from the MSM, you just pretend otherwise>
4. Are you aware that the BBC (presumably one of your revered sources of "real" journalism) has acknowledged what could only be considered journalistic fraud in it's coverage of the Israel/Gaza war?
5. If the MSM simply parrot the propaganda claims of Hamas, are they really doing "real" journalism?
6. If I post a link to a Twitter post which is either an official MSM Twitter page, OR a link to a video from an MSM source, do you realize the following. The official Twitter page for an MSM outlet, literally is no different from any other means that the MSM outlet uses to disseminate their product. A link to a Tweet containing a clip from an MSM source, does not magically invalidate the contents of the clip.
7. UNRWA is not a "separate outfit" from the UN, and has a checkered history at best.
The only slander and conspiracy theory happening is you pretending like I haven't been posting on this for 2 years using MSM, Government, and Statistical aggregator links regularly. You're choosing to live in a fantasy world (multifaceted) instead of living in reality.
The problem is that you've sat silently by and chosen to say nothing as we see an increase in barbarity across the globe, and as we see in this post, right here in the good old USA. I know you have your stock excuses, and that's sweet. Unfortunately for you, you're on your won here. You can check what I've posted and deal with that or not, I don't care that much. What you can't do is lie about what I've posted, make demands, or engage in the very behavior you accuse me of.
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