Monday, September 16, 2019

A target rich environment

Dan has just posted a rough draft of his effort to categorize the saying of Jesus.   He started with Luke, which seems strange because it's not the oldest, it's not the first, but I'm sure he had some really good reasons to do so.  

As much as I'd like to copy the entire thing and dig into it, that is just too much of a task.   I do want to focus on one part of this rough draft and point out some concerns, and suggest that if I can find this many issues in one small section, that it's reasonable to suspect that the rest of the effort might rasie similar issues.

I'm not going to copy the extensive color code system, when this one line will suffice.

"Jesus' words that are directly about wealth and/or poverty in Bright Green."

This section, while short opens up lots of issues.


 "The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’” [simple living, reliance upon God]"


I'll start with the obvious.  Satan, doesn't offer Jesus bread in order to satisfy His physical hunger, Satan attempts to taunt Jesus into transforming stones into bread.  Jesus is being asked to use His power over the physical realm to engage in an essentially selfish act.    Let's be clear, if this was merely the offer of bread, what's the big deal?  How is that temptation?   But to try to taunt Jesus into an act of selfishness, that's a whole other level, or so it seems to me.   

This raises a series of sub questions, that seem appropriate here.
Is the text referring to a literal Satan and a literal Jesus?
Does Jesus actually have the ability/power to transform stones into bread?"
Do these two actually literally see "all the kingdoms of the world" and ascend to the highest point of the literal temple?

Those asked, back to the text.

Jesus answers "It is written...".   Where is it written?  Why is the fact that it is written important?  Why doesn't Jesus just say "I'm not hungry."?

The answer is, it's written in Deuteronomy 8:3.

" And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live."

This text also raises questions.

If God is full of concern for those who hunger, why would He cause His people hunger?   The text suggests that He does so to prove a point.  But isn't that cruel?   Or is the point being made important enough to justify something that seems extreme in order to make the point?

Back to Luke, Dan writes, "Other translations do not include that line in Luke, because, the translators say, the oldest and most reliable texts do not include the line."

Clearly the first problem is that Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy, and  as such it seems reasonable that His listeners would have been familiar with the entire verse.  The reality is that the "older text", Deuteronomy, does include those words.     So, more questions.

Was Jesus quoting Deuteronomy?
If so, then why?
Or, was Jesus ignorant of the Deuteronomy text?

Now this from Dan.

 " I am just embracing a common sense and fairly literal read on a text. For instance, in the story about the temptation of Jesus, supposedly Satan is offering Jesus literal bread to take care of his little hunger."

Yet the literal text does not literally say that.   It literally says "...tell this stone to become bread...", which is literally different from Dan's characterization.

Again, from Dan.

"For instance, let's just take the "humans should not live by bread alone," text. I'm saying that the teaching there is that we should place our trust in God and not wealth. The point is Simplicity, and relying upon God and not wealth. Do you think that's NOT the point of that particular part of the text?"

Yet nowhere in the text is that either explicit or implicit.   Jesus is asked to "prove" that He is "the Son of God", that's the context.  To simply reduce it to Jesus was hungry, ignores both the text and the context.

No, I do not think that the point of the story has anything to do with material wealth.    However, I'm not the one making sweeping claims about the intended content of Jesus words.  What i think isn't the issue.  The issue is whether or not your take lines up with what the author intended and what Jesus intended.

"I would rather say that the whole story about the temptation is about relying upon God and not wealth or power. This is Central to the teaching of Grace as found throughout Jesus teachings. Do you disagree?"

I really don't care what you "would rather say", that really has little or no impact on the reality of the text.   It's clear that you "would rather say" many things that don;t line up with either the plain meaning of the text, or with much of the commentaries written about the text.   This seems to be exactly your point.  It's all about what you "would rather" things mean than about finding out what they actually mean.

I'll return to an earlier quite from Dan.  "...Other translations do not include that line in Luke,".   I'll note here that his lack of noting what translation(s) he's using is potentially problematic in multiple ways.  I'll also ignore the fact that the implication is that the Luke version is superior to Matthew.  But I'll leave that aside and instead look at some actual other translations of the passage in Luke.



KJV21
And Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’”
And Jesus answered unto him, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone.
Jesus replied to him, “It is written and forever remains written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”
And Jesus replied to him, It is written, Man shall not live and be sustained by (on) bread alone but by every word and expression of God.
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
But Jesus answered him, “It is written: Man must not live on bread alone.”
Jesus replied, “It’s written, People won’t live only by bread.”
Yeshua answered him, “The Tanakh says, ‘Man does not live on bread alone.’”
Jesus answered, “The Scriptures say, ‘No one can live only on food.’”
And Jesus answered unto him saying, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
And Jesus responded to him, “It has been written [in Deut 8:3] that ‘Mankind shall not live on bread alone’”.
And Jesus answered him: It is written, that Man liveth not by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Jesus answered, “The Scriptures say, ‘It is not just bread that keeps people alive.’”
Jesus answered him, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’”
And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”
And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”
Jesus answered, “It is written in the Scriptures: ‘A person does not live on bread alone [Deut. 8:3].’”
But Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread only, but by every word of God.
Jesus answered him, “Scripture says, ‘A person cannot live on bread alone.’”
But Jesus answered, “The scripture says, ‘Human beings cannot live on bread alone.’”
But Jesus answered him, “It is written: Man must not live on bread alone.”
Jesus answered, “It is written in the Scriptures: ‘A person does not live only by eating bread.’”
Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘One must not live on bread alone, but on every word of God.’”
Jesus answered, “The scripture says, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God’.”
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
And Jesus replied to him, “It is written, ‘Man will not live on bread alone.’”
But Jesus replied, “It is written in the Scriptures, ‘Other things in life are much more important than bread!’”
Jesus answered by quoting Deuteronomy: “It takes more than bread to really live.”
Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’”
And Jesus answered him, · “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’” ·
Yeshua answered him, “Scripture says, ‘A person cannot live on bread alone.’”
Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘One does not live by bread alone.’”
And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”
Jesus answered, “It is written in the Scriptures: ‘A person does not live on bread alone.’”
Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man does not live by bread alone.’”
Jesus answered, “It is written, ‘Man must not live only on bread.’ ” (Deuteronomy 8:3)
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”
Jesus answered, ‘It is written: “Man shall not live on bread alone.”’
But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’ ”
Jesus said to him, “It is written, ‘Man is not to live by bread alone.’”
But Jesus told him, “No! The Scriptures say, ‘People do not live by bread alone.’”
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written: Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘One does not live by bread alone.’”
Jesus answered him, ‘It is written, “One does not live by bread alone.”’
Jesus answered him, ‘It is written, “One does not live by bread alone.”’
Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘One does not live by bread alone.’”
‘It is written,’ replied Jesus, ‘ “It takes more than bread to keep you alive.” ’
And Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach answered Hasatan, It has been written, LO AL HALECHEM LVADOH YCHE-YEH HAADAM, (Not by bread alone will man live Dt 8:3).
Jesus replied, “I will not! For it is written in the Scriptures, ‘Life does not come only from eating bread but from God. Life flows from every revelation from his mouth.’”
But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread only, but by every word of God.’”
And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”
And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”
Yeshua answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”
Jesus: It is written in the Hebrew Scriptures, “People need more than bread to live.”
Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’”Deuteronomy 8:3
Jesus answered him, `The holy writings say, "Man cannot live on bread only." '
And Jesus answered to him, It is written, That a man liveth not in bread alone, but in every word of God.
And Jesus answered him, saying, `It hath been written, that, not on bread only shall man live, but on every saying of God.'
 
 
I could have cherry picked out the ones that agree with Dan, but didn't because the fact that the totality of his comment is that only the KJV uses the second phrase, is gloriously proven false.   Of  course, the apparent fact the He is quoting Deuteronomy probably makes the second phrase redundant.   

Sunday, September 15, 2019

The text for today

1 Peter 2 was the text for today and it raised a few thoughts.

I don’t understand how anyone can read the text and conclude anything other that that God chooses those who will follow Him.

There is no hint at all that His choices are based on anyone’s material condition.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that Peter either got this wrong, misunderstood, or just didn’t care to relate Jesus’ teachings accurately.

The interim pastor, who preached, is too cowardly to tackle the text head on.

Friday, September 13, 2019

If...

"If you have really handed yourself over to Him, it must follow that you are trying to obey Him...Not hoping to get to Heaven as a reward for your actions, but inevitably wanting to act in a certain way because a first faint gleam of Heaven is already inside you." #CSLewis

Thursday, September 12, 2019

“Your President”

I find this obsession with labeling Trump as “your president” laughably pathetic.  I have precisely the same relationship with Trump that I had with P-BO.    I didn’t support or vote for either of them during the election cycles, but once they were sworn in, I supported actions or policies I agreed with, and criticized the actions I didn’t.

The simple fact is that no matter who sits in the office and what we think of them, they aren’t “yours or mine”, they are the president.  

Wednesday, September 11, 2019

Rice

I was watching an interview with Condi Rice on NBC this morning, and couldn’t help but wondering why she isn’t and hasn’t been a presidential candidate.

Then I remembered how African Americans and women are treated when the do anything but toe the liberal line.  

Monday, September 9, 2019

Untitled

“Religion stress holiness over grace. Irreligion stresses freedom over holiness. Christianity is freedom through Grace that leads to holiness”

TG4

“The gospel is the royal announcement that the crucified and risen Jesus, who died for our sins and rose again according to the Scriptures, has been enthroned as the true Lord of the world. When this gospel is preached, God calls people to salvation, out of sheer grace, leading them to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as the risen Lord.” – Christianity Today, June 2009
“The whole Christian gospel could be summed up in this point: that when the living God looks at us, at every baptized and believing Christian, he says to us what he said to Jesus on [the day of his baptism]. He sees us, not as we are in ourselves, but as we are in Jesus Christ.” – Mark for Everyone, pg. 4.
“The gospel itself refers to the proclamation that Jesus, the crucified and risen Messiah, is the one, true and only Lord of the world.” – from “Paul in Different Perspectives: Lecture 1””

“The whole Christian gospel could be summed up in this point: that when the living God looks at us, at every baptized and believing Christian, he says to us what he said to Jesus on [the day of his baptism]. He sees us, not as we are in ourselves, but as we are in Jesus Christ.” – Mark for Everyone, pg. 4.”
“The gospel itself refers to the proclamation that Jesus, the crucified and risen Messiah, is the one, true and only Lord of the world.” – from “Paul in Different Perspectives: Lecture 1”
“The idea of ‘good news,’ for which an older English word is ‘gospel,’ had two principal meanings for first-century Jews. First, with roots in Isaiah, it mean the news of YHWH’s long-awaited victory over evil and rescue of his people. Second, it was used in the Roman world of the accession, or birthday, of the emperor. Since for Jesus and Paul the announcement.”
“And in the middle of that, of course, it’s good news for you and me. But that’s the derivative from, or the corollary of the good news which is a message about Jesus that has a second-order effect on me and you and us. But the gospel is not itself about you are this sort of a person and this can happen to you. That’s the result of the gospel rather than the gospel itself.
It’s very clear in Romans. Romans 1:3-4: This is the gospel. It’s the message about Jesus Christ descended from David, designated Son of God in power, and then Romans 1:16-17 which says very clearly: “I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God unto salvation.” That is, salvation is the result of the gospel, not the center of the gospel itself.”
NT Wright