Tuesday, July 5, 2016

Morality

There have been multiple assertions made about the nature of morality and I'd like to look at two of them.

First; Definitions.

Morality
1.   Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion, or culture,
2.   In its descriptive sense, "morality" refers to personal or cultural values, codes of conduct or social mores. It does not connote objective claims of right or wrong.
3.    Morality in a descriptive sense may be defined as a code of conduct endorsed and adhered to by a society, group or—much less frequently—individual. Moral codes in this sense will, therefore, differ both from society to society, within societies, and amongst individuals.
4.    Morality in a descriptive sense may be defined as a code of conduct endorsed and adhered to by a society, group or—much less frequently—individual. Moral codes in this sense will, therefore, differ both from society to society, within societies, and amongst individuals.
5.     Conformance to a recognized code, doctrine, or system of rules of what is right or wrong and to behave accordingly. No system of morality is accepted as universal, and the answers to the question "What is morality?" differ sharply from place to place, group to group, and time to time

The first is that morality is subjective.   If one looks at the dictionary as well as what sociologists say the morality is subjective, at least at the level of the society or group.  So far no one is suggesting that morality is subjective at the individual level, which seems as though it would result in chaos.   But what does it mean to be subjective at the society or group level.   In practice that probably means that as long as either 51% of the society or group agree, or if there is some sort of intellectual or ruling "elite" who guide the society, that decisions about morality will be made by either of those two groups.   Personally the idea of 51% being able to impose their will on 49% doesn't sit well with me on some level.  Of course, neither does having some "elite" class doing the same thing.  The primary problem with this construct is that things change.  For example, in many cultures throughout history (even today in many Islamic nations) chattel slavery was a practice that was approved of by a majority of the population, which made it a moral practice based on the social mores of the groups in question.   Nowadays, many people regard chattel slavery as an immoral act and condemn it.   Yet, if one holds to morality as subjective and society driven, then both the anti slavery society and pro slavery society are moral as defined by their societal norms.    Or, what happens when a society changes it's mind?   Again take slavery.  For years slavery was considered as a moral act by much of western society.  Yet as attitudes changed, slavery was considered immoral.   This raises the question, can an act be immoral at one point in the development of a society, yet immoral at another point.

The second is that morality is self evident.   This one raises numerous questions.

1.  If morality is self evident, why do we see so much variation on moral principles from society to society and group to group?
2.   If morality is self evident, how do we explain the large numbers of people who act in immoral ways?
3.   How can morality be both self evident and subjective/
4.   How can one argue that protecting the right to live is self evidently moral, and argue that abortion is not immoral?   (That abortion is either moral or morally neutral)
5.   When people engage in acts that contravene these self evident morals, why do they engage in those acts?
6.   Are people simply unaware of these self evident moral standards and act from ignorance?
7.   Are people aware of these self evident moral standards, yet choose to act contrary to them?
8.   If a member of a society who considers it moral to randomly kill innocent people, acts in a way they (and their society) believe to be (subjectively) moral, what basis do other societies have to condemn those actions?
9.   Are actions moral or are individuals moral?

Finally, no matter whether you believe that morality is subjective and culture driven or that morality is objective and God directed, what morality really comes down to is simply exercising human effort in order to outwardly conform to some external standard of behavior.   It doesn't address motive or attitude.  It doesn't address acts in private.  It is simply peer pressure from either society or authority that forces conformity of action.     Don't get me wrong, "Don't kill innocent people." is a good moral standard from either perspective and I'm glad that most of the world agrees, but is it enough to simply exert enough control to avoid acting on our impulses?

Jesus never once told people to be moral.   Jesus told the one guy who bragged about how moral he was that his incredible morality wasn't enough.   Jesus talked about not just avoiding actually killing people, but about avoiding the internal hatred that is equivalent to killing someone, about the lust of the heart that is the equivalent of adultery.    Jesus commanded us to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love others the way we love ourselves.   Jesus talked about how those who love Him will keep His commandments, He never mentions conforming to some societal ordained subjective list of behaviors.     Elsewhere we hear talk about faith and not works, lest anyone should boast about how incredibly moral they are.

I guess I conclude that subjective societal morality certainly plays a role in regulating behavior, but that if someone claims to follow Jesus then that bar just seems like it's much to low.  

Personally being moral doesn't seem like much to boast about, but if it's enough for some, then I guess it's better than nothing.

15 comments:

Dan Trabue said...

Don't know that I disagree with much of what you've written here, such as it is, but one clarification...

Jesus said morality wasn't enough to save the man, and indeed, Christians all tend to agree with Jesus on the point. I certainly do.

Dan Trabue said...
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Dan Trabue said...

Another point, regarding Jesus never telling people to be moral... I'd think you might have to qualify that. Jesus certainly told his followers they "must be PERFECT, as your heavenly Father is perfect..." And that, in the midst of his SOTM that was largely about moral behavior.

I think Jesus clearly taught his followers moral guidelines, but always, always in the context of grace, not legalism.

Dan Trabue said...
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Craig said...

I know you've already decided to ignore certain of Jesus commandments, but now you're suggesting that Jesus moral guidelines are subjective. You've got chutzpah I'll give you that.

I like how you've recategorized Jesus commandments as guidelines and somehow manage to make His command to be perfect into a suggestion to conform to subjective morality.

Chutzpah

As usual I appreciate it when you agree with my pointing out the flaws in your subjective position.

Dan Trabue said...

Decided to ignore Jesus' commandments: false claim. Hasn't happened. Not me. Now, it can be argued that many conservative types do this, but not me.

Just to correct that mistaken understanding you have.

Craig said...

Sure you have. Or have you sold all of your possessions to give to the poor yet?

Craig said...

I love how you reduce the teachings of the God spoke in the universe came into existence down to me or guidelines.

Craig said...

Mere guidelines

Marshal Art said...

"I think Jesus clearly taught his followers moral guidelines, but always, always in the context of grace, not legalism."

I'm going to go out on a limb here and attempt to explain what Dan thinks he means. First, Jesus didn't regard the commandments of God as "guidelines"

" ''First, your return to shore was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement, so I must do nothing. And secondly, you must be a pirate for the Pirate's Code to apply, and you're not. And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules. "



— Captain Hector Barbossa

Be that as it may, it is true that there is a difference between a legalistic application of God's commandments versus understanding the point of them when applying them. But that's not "grace". And it's not really what Christ ever talked about. That which He derided as legalism was not the Pharisees' abuse of behavioral laws...you're either lying or you're not...but laws such as the Sabbath law. The Pharisees would make a big deal out of some poor dude exerting effort on the Sabbath, effort that may very well have been a health or life-saving necessity. That's not what a "Day of Rest" was meant for. Purity laws, rituals, laws pertaining to outward appearances that demonstrate to all that one is one of the Chosen People...those things were not important to God if people ignored how to treat each other and/or revere Him.

Marshal Art said...

I think it bears repeating that the terms "moral/morality" and/or "immoral/immorality" do not seem to be used in Scripture the way they are typically used these days. I've done a search of several Bible versions (KGV, NIV, ESV, etc)...about a dozen at least, and the words don't appear at all in many of them. Yet, when they do appear, they are almost always connected to the sexual. That is, "sexual immorality". It typically stands alone and apart from other sinful behaviors categorically.

(Dennis Prager once intended to explain why "sexual" and "immorality" don't go together from a Biblical perspective, and I was unable to listen in. I would like to have called him about it, as my search of the terms in the various Bibles had already taken place by the time I heard him say this.)

But using the terms as they are now commonly used, I still insist that morality is fixed and must be discovered. They exist as they always have before we were born and remain the same always. This is because they come from God. No action is inherently immoral that isn't called sinful by God. Thus, morality is behavior that is pleasing to God, while immorality is behavior that displeases Him.

Some would say that we don't need God to tell us a given behavior is immoral. It is self-evident. No. It's not. It may be self-evident that it is harmful, a manifestation of the bad attitude of the perpetrator, or it may be self-evident that most people would not want to be on the receiving end of the given behavior. But what makes it immoral is that God prohibits it. AS such, I don't need to reason it out. I don't need to talk it over with the rest of society. I may be the only one left in the world who believes a behavior is immoral because God has so decided it is and it would still be true, and true after I'm gone and there's no one left to carry the banner.

Craig said...

MA,

I agree that it is possible that a fixed set of morals exist and that it can and must be discovered. But without an overarching authority or set of universal principles that is impossible. Clearly, it is possible and reasonable to posit that God has provided us with a set of morals which we should acknowledge and live by. If fact, I'm in the middle of Francis Scheaffer laying out a detailed and compelling case for just that. (FYI, Dan somehow felt that he could use his incredible Reason to summarily dismiss anything Schaeffer had ever written because Sheaffer was "too Calvinist".) So, I would agree with you.

Where we have problems is with Dan, Sociologists, and dictionaries that define and demand that morals are based in societies and groups and are subjective. As this post pointed out this approach has some significant problems as well as an inability or unwillingness (as demonstrated by Dan) to answer some difficult questions and address some significant problems with their worldview.

Ultimately, I find it hard to take talk of morality seriously from anyone who has argued that abortion, drug use, and pornography are either moral or morally neutral.

The biggest disconnect I find between what Dan puts forth as morality (conforming to a random, subjective, society/group based set of rules, and simply showing external obedience) and what Jesus talked about was that Dan's morality is simply about acquiescing to a subjective standard of behavior, whereas Jesus was talking about a wholesale, complete, radical transformation from the inside out. He wasn't about making reasonably good people conform to a set of subjective rules, He was about taking people who were spiritually dead and bringing them to full abundant life. The difference being that the change in behavior was generated out of in inward desire to be, live, and love like Jesus. Not by the prideful need to conform to subjective societal rules.

The problem with Dan's construct of morality is not that the behaviors are bad or damaging to society, it's that it's such a low bar and God has a much greater way for those who can give up control, pride, and Reason.

Craig said...

"Some would say that we don't need God to tell us a given behavior is immoral. It is self-evident."

Most who ascribe to the dictionary definition of morality would agree that it is self evident that people shouldn't strap bombs to themselves and detonate them among innocent people. Yet clearly, to millions of people throughout the world, this is NOT self evident. In fact, it's the complete opposite. They believe that it is a moral act, more so a holy act. So (as I asked earlier) what happened? Do some folks not get the memo? Are they stupid? Contrary? Are they right?

In a 'system" of subjective society based morality, both sides can be/are right in judging two completely opposite actions to be moral within the context of their society.

But Dan is adamant that morality is subjective and the objective morality does not/cannot exist.

Marshal Art said...

"I agree that it is possible that a fixed set of morals exist and that it can and must be discovered. But without an overarching authority or set of universal principles that is impossible."

This seems to be a bit on the redundant side, if I'm understanding you properly. In my mind, morality IS the overarching authority...it IS that set of universal principles. That is, morality IS a set of universal principles put forth by God because they are pleasing to Him. OR...God is that overarching Authority who provided us with a set of universal principles that we call morality or moral behaviors.

I am totally with you with regards to the notion that what is or isn't moral is self-evident. That is clearly not so as you describe with suicide bombers. And even if those who agree with the bombers are overwhelmingly outnumbered by those who find such behavior immoral, it wouldn't change a thing if the numbers were reversed, or even if no one found it immoral. It still would be because it's murder and God prohibits murder.

Craig said...

Sorry if that sounds strange. I'm trying to contrast between the Dan view of subjective morals and the Christian view of objective morals.