https://www.foxnews.com/world/un-revises-gaza-death-toll-50-less-women-children-killed-previously-reported
For all of those whining about genocide in Gaza, and uncritically parroting the Hamas casualty figures, you should probably stop now. This is the second lowering of those numbers I've seen, and it just points out how Israel is waging an urban war against a terrorist group who intentionally hides behind women and children, and doing it in such as way as to minimize civilian casualties.
In all honesty, Israel clearly suck at genociding.
16 comments:
To take as the word of the islamists is stupidity on steroids. To alter the Reaganite adage to suit this situation: Never trust. ALWAYS verify.
It's always seemed absurd to blindly trust the word of Hamas given their willingness to engage in such vile and inhumane tactics. They clearly have an agenda and are not afraid to blatantly lie in order to achieve it.
Y'all DO know that Doctors without Borders and other aid organizations are reporting on the widespread slaughter of innocents, right? This is happening in public view for those mot burying their heads in the sand.
Dan
So, Dan decides that he'll ignore the Gaza MOH that reduced their casualty numbers by 30% months ago, and the UN who've lowered that number further in favor of claiming that Dr's W/O Borders magically has the correct number. All while likely parroting the old (wrong) numbers.
So far, Dan's bullshit about Gaza has been shot down by the Geneva Conventions, The UN, GMOH, and the ICC, so he'll just jump to whoever tells him what he wants to hear.
No one is arguing that "innocents" are being killed or wounded. What is being argued is that Hamas is almost totally responsible for "innocents" being killed/wounded, is whether or not Gazans are "innocent" given their overwhelming support for Hamas and it's actions, and whether or not Israel's actions violate the GC. But you keep you head in the sand and pretend like Hamas bears zero responsibility, and the the @60 Muslim majority nations haven't been much more effecting in eradicating their Jewish populations.
That you say you understand international laws does not mean that you do. That you cite the ICC does not mean that lawyers agree with your limited, shallow understanding.
That you say that I'm pretending that Hamas bears zero responsibility does not make the claim reality or anything but a stupidly false claim, given the reality that I've NEVER said that and do not make that claim and indeed, that I've repeatedly noted the war crimes and evil committed by Hamas in the original attack, the kidnappings and in hiding behind civilians.
Stupidly false is just stupidly false.
So, get outside of your closed echo chambers and read the more complex stories and explanations of BOTH sides committing bad actions. Don't be morally naive.
"And so it is possible for both sides to violate IHL in the same instance: Hamas by using human shields, and Israel by launching a disproportionate strike. The former violation does not excuse or permit the latter; any strike must abide by the principle of proportionality."
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/16/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-war-crimes-international-law-explainer-intl/index.html
"That you say you understand international laws does not mean that you do."
I've provide chapter and verse for you straight from the GCs and other relevant international laws, to demonstrate that Israel is acting well within international law, and is (in fact) conducting an exemplary campaign of urban warfare and keeping civilian casualties to levels lower than virtually anyone else in modern history.
"That you cite the ICC does not mean that lawyers agree with your limited, shallow understanding."
Well, the ICC has NOT found Israel guilty of "genocide", so there's that. Then there's the appeal to unnamed, unsourced, "lawyers" as if that settles everything.
"That you say that I'm pretending that Hamas bears zero responsibility does not make the claim reality or anything but a stupidly false claim, given the reality that I've NEVER said that and do not make that claim and indeed, that I've repeatedly noted the war crimes and evil committed by Hamas in the original attack, the kidnappings and in hiding behind civilians."
Yet you continue to focus ONLY on what Israel is doing, make false claims about what Israel is doing, and repeat the casualty numbers that have twice been proven false. The fact that your actions don't match the words you use to cover your one sided attacks isn't my fault.
"Stupidly false is just stupidly false."
Especially when it's you.
"So, get outside of your closed echo chambers and read the more complex stories and explanations of BOTH sides committing bad actions. Don't be morally naive."
"Stupidly false, is just stupidly false." When you make this kind of bullshit up and pretend like it's magically True just because you spewed some words into a comment box, is just one more example of the double standard you cling to.
I've cited all sorts of sources that are outside of my "closed echo chambers", and have been doing so since 10/7 happened. I've cited (again) chapter and verse of relevant international law, and you've ignored it. You continue to spout the GMOH figures even though they've been discredited. Your ignorance on the conflict between Israel and the Arabs is monumental, as you your grasp of the history.
But it's cool, I enjoy watching you make a fool of yourself.
" An Israeli airstrike on a six-story apartment building sheltering hundreds of people in central Gaza on October 31, 2023, is an apparent war crime, Human Rights Watch said today. The attack, which killed at least 106 civilians, including 54 children, is among the deadliest single incidents for civilians since the Israeli government’s bombardment and ground incursion into Gaza following the Hamas-led attacks on Israel on October 7.
Human Rights Watch found no evidence of a military target in the vicinity of the building at the time of the Israeli attack, making the strike unlawfully indiscriminate under the laws of war. Israeli authorities have provided no justification for the attack. The Israeli military’s long track record of failing to credibly investigate alleged war crimes underscores the importance of the International Criminal Court (ICC)’s inquiry into serious crimes committed by all parties to the conflict.
“Israel’s unlawful airstrike on an apartment building on October 31 killed at least 106 people, including children playing football, residents charging phones in the ground-floor grocery store, and displaced families seeking safety,” said Gerry Simpson, associate crisis and conflict director at Human Rights Watch. “This strike inflicted massive civilian casualties without an apparent military target – one of scores of attacks causing overwhelming carnage, and highlighting the urgency of the ICC probe.”"
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/04/04/gaza-israeli-strike-killing-106-civilians-apparent-war-crime
We BOTH/ALL know what the Geneva Convention and other pertinent laws say. That isn't in question. That YOU tell me what I already know the GC says means nothing. It's the interpretation. HAS Israel been disproportionate in their response? WERE the targets legitimate targets? EVEN IF there was a legitimate target somewhere in sight, does that mean that it was okay to kill 25 children and 100 adult civilians to get those 1-10 soldiers being targeted?
THESE are the questions that lawyers and courts will be asking and getting answers to in the coming days/weeks/years. Don't be naive or think that merely citing a line from GC proves your non-expert hunch.
Engage in adult, respectful conversations, indeed.
"We BOTH/ALL know what the Geneva Convention and other pertinent laws say. That isn't in question. That YOU tell me what I already know the GC says means nothing. It's the interpretation."
No, it's not. I've posted the expert analysis at least twice, so I'm not going to again. But, as the casualty numbers get continually revised downward it only makes the IDF look better than they already do.
"HAS Israel been disproportionate in their response?"
When your foe's sworn goal is total extermination and conquest of your country, what does proportional look like? When your foe continues to hold hostages, in violation of international law that's not interpretation, what's proportional? How many more hostages have to suffer, die, be raped or mutilated to salve your white liberal guilt? To answer the question, no. Israel has suffered years of attacks on innocent civilians, unguided rockets, car bombs, and the like before the barbarity of 10/7 happened. It's time they protected their innocent citizens.
" WERE the targets legitimate targets? EVEN IF there was a legitimate target somewhere in sight, does that mean that it was okay to kill 25 children and 100 adult civilians to get those 1-10 soldiers being targeted?"
I see no reason to indulge your made up fantasy scenario. But, according the the GC and international law, Israel is well within the accepted norms for this kind of a war. Especially impressive considering Hamas' insistence on sacrificing their own subjects for sympathy from folx like you.
"THESE are the questions that lawyers and courts will be asking and getting answers to in the coming days/weeks/years. Don't be naive or think that merely citing a line from GC proves your non-expert hunch."
I've cited considerably more than "a line". It's interesting that your original position post 10/7 was that Israel (and only Israel) had violated the GC and committed war crimes. I posted lengthy excerpts from the GC to demonstrate that you were wrong. You chose to ignore that then, now you pretend like you weren't the one making claims about GC violations.
The only "court case" currently is the absurd case brought by South Africa (where killing the white farmer is a national sport), which alleges "genocide". Given the fact that Israel has not committed genocide, nor are they attempting genocide, that should be a moot point. The problem is that no amount of evidence, or court results, will change your propaganda addled mind. You've become someone who just repeats the Hamas talking points and ignores anything else.
"I get that YOU think they have been discredited. But that doesn't mean much to me. The question is, ARE they discredited and utterly disproven? Or is it the case that we don't know yet?"
Well, since the GMOH themself lowered their claims by 30%, and the UN just lowered the revised claims further, and since those were reported by "journalists", I'd say it's reasonable to conclude that the GMOH/Hamas grossly inflated their casualty numbers to dupe people like you.
My point remains, that according to every metric for this type of urban warfare, the IDF has a lower civilian casualty rate than is expected. This notion that you can just take an arbitrary number, provided by Hamas which has an interest in inflating it's casualty numbers, and proclaim that that's too much is ridiculous.
If nothing else, it's safe to say that the casualty data from the GMOH is a propaganda tool and as such should be suspect. Given that the UN "data" is based on GMOH data, I can't see how it can be blindly accepted as accurate.
But, if you can move the topic away from the GC, international law, and acceptable casualty rates, then you can play your subjective "It's too many." games, and avoid blaming Hamas.
Who has the ability to stop civilian casualties tomorrow?
If Dan lived during WWII he would have said bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not proportional and that too many civilians were killed, making it a war crime.
"The alleged presence of human shields does not automatically mean that a site cannot be a legitimate military target. However, any attack on such a site must be weighed against the principle of proportionality, looking at the number of civilian casualties compared to the expected military advantage."
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-war-crimes-laws-apply-israel-palestinian-conflict-2023-11-16/
"The Duty of Proportionality
The theory is reflected, too, in the Israeli government’s approach to specific legal obligations. Take the all-important duty of proportionality, codified in Article 57(2)(a)(iii) of Protocol I and incorporated into customary international humanitarian law and accepted by Israel.
It prohibits attacks that are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.”
As the U.S. Department of Defense’s Law of War Manual points out, the rule is challenging because it balances “unlike quantities and values.” There is no objective standard for assessing excessive harm or assessing its relation to military advantage. Nevertheless, as the ICRC Commentaries to Protocol I emphasize, “The principles of the Conventions are precisely aimed at determining where the limits lie; the principle of proportionality contributes to this.” (¶ 2206).
And, indeed, the rule has been clear enough for criminal tribunals to apply it."
https://www.justsecurity.org/90789/israels-rewriting-of-the-law-of-war/
As they are pointing out, Israel is re-imagining/re-writing the rules of proportionality. If the goal is to totally wipe out Hamas, then any human collateral is acceptable and Hamas' fault, the reasoning goes. Perhaps that's why you so stalwartly defend this destruction of innocent civilians?
But the problem is, it won't work. Israel is not going to be able to "win" ultimately, IF they become the monster that Hamas is portraying them as. You can't murder, kill and destroy your way to a winning scenario, much less a moral winning scenario.
Israel/Netanyahu are being Hamas' dupes.
Glenn,
Dan's ignorance of the history of the Arab/Israeli conflict is stupendous. Let's not confuse things by bringing up another topic he is ignorant about.
I suspect the numbers are available, but don't want to dig now. But I'd be shocked if you added up all of the lives takes by Japan from 1935-1945 and compared that to all the Japanese lives taken by the Allies, that the scale would be heavily weighted toward Japan. The problem with quantifying it is that the Japanese considered so many of their victims as subhuman, that they saw no reason to keep accurate records of their wanton slaughter.
Dan thinks Japan was somehow the victim, just like Hamas.
"As they are pointing out, Israel is re-imagining/re-writing the rules of proportionality. If the goal is to totally wipe out Hamas, then any human collateral is acceptable and Hamas' fault, the reasoning goes. Perhaps that's why you so stalwartly defend this destruction of innocent civilians?"
As I've pointed out elsewhere, this doesn't seem to be True. Of course any collateral damage is Hamas' fault, their billionaire leaders have been clear that it is their goal to sacrifice the "elderly, women and children" in order to dupe folx like you to help them achieve their goal.
"But the problem is, it won't work. Israel is not going to be able to "win" ultimately, IF they become the monster that Hamas is portraying them as. You can't murder, kill and destroy your way to a winning scenario, much less a moral winning scenario."
Given that "murder, kill, and destroy", along with rape, kidnap, torture, and using human shields describes Hamas' tactics much more accurately than Israels, I guess there's a problem. I'm sure you're right, being an expert and all, that Israel should just walk away. Leave the hostages, leave Hamas to slaughter more innocent Israeli civilians, and to continue to try to eradicate Israel from the face of the earth.
"Israel/Netanyahu are being Hamas' dupes."
Nah, that'd be you, Biden, Blinken, and the idiots who can't even manage a hunger strike correctly. Enjoy being on the side of terrorist rapists for a change.
It appears that the Biden administration has been withholding information on the whereabouts of the hostages and Hamas leaders from Israel, while also not doing anything to free the hostages or bring the Hamas leaders to justice. Just throwing tax dollars to Hamas.
Dan,
I'm so proud that you were able to cherry pick some things from someone else's analysis of the GC/international law, too bad you hid from the GC/international law when I quoted it extensively?
Where are you fervent calls to bring those responsible for 10/7 and the indiscriminate deaths of Israeli civilians before the bar of justice? Who, in your fantasy world, is going to get the hostages released? Who's going to bring women's rights to Gaza? Who's going to force Hamas to accept LGBTQ+-XYZPDQ rights to Gaza? Who's going to punish Hamas from diverting food aid away from the "innocent" citizens?
Dan's lying again.
Well, his fingers are forming words on they keys of his keyboard, so it's kind of assumed.
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