Monday, October 5, 2020

Supernatural

Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done;
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation;
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

 

There has been a lot of back and forth over the notion of God acting in a supernatural way recently.  Given that the God described in scripture is a supernatural being, who's described as "Spirit and Truth", it seems like any time He interacts with humanity, the encounter is supernatural.  One question I asked is, "If God doesn't act supernaturally, then why pray?".   Yesterday, in the installation service for our senior pastor there was a lot of talk about God; calling, leading,  comforting, inspiring, blessing, etc.  To me it seems obvious that any of those requires a supernatural interaction between a God who is Spirit and humans who are flesh.  

It's often hard to look at scripture in these cases because so many people have adopted a mindset that things said by Jesus carry more weight than things said by others.  This makes it difficult to use scripture from the OT and from Paul's epistles.   Fortunately many of these folks are particularly attentive to the Sermon on the Mount, and give great credence and worth to those passages.  So, let's look at the part of the SOTM where Jesus talks about prayer.

The first and most obvious point is that Jesus is exhorting us to pray and to pray to "Our Father who art in heaven".   It seems safe to conclude that Jesus is telling us to pray to a supernatural being.    This being is to be "hallowed" which means "holy, consecrated, greatly revered, or honored",  which is a lot to unpack here.

Then we move to "thy kingdom come; thy will be done; on earth as it is in heaven."

I believe that the only reasonable conclusion that we can draw from this phrase is that we should expect God to bring about His will on earth the same way He would in heaven.   That His will for what happens in our natural world is aimed at the same thing as in His supernatural world.  That when we pray, that we should expect some of the supernatural to invade and influence the natural.   I can see no possible way to reasonably conclude that Jesus is not telling His followers to expect some degree of supernatural response.

"Give us this day our daily bread."    In our 21st century, first world, lives, we probably take this phrase a little figuratively.  After all we go to work, we earn our paycheck, and we go the the grocery store to put food on the table.  Yet, anyone who's spent time with believers in the third world realizes that they literally depend on God to provide them with the ability to eat.  No one is talking manna from heaven or anything, but we are talking a sincere belief that God will help them find what they need to sustain life.  Compared to even the poorest in the US, this sort of life seems brutally hard and discouraging, yet many worldwide live this line of scripture daily with an immense amount of faith.  

"And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

There's probably several books worth of stuff to unpack here, so I'll be brief.   It's reasonable to conclude (especially in light of Jesus other teachings) that the first forgiveness is from God to us, which by definition would seem to invoke some level of supernatural activity.  If we sin against a supernatural God, and he forgives us, then it seems foolish to deny that some supernatural activity is taking place.  Further, it seems that that supernatural forgiveness is something that we model in the natural world.   

"And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."

 The terms "lead' and "deliver" suggest that God takes an active role in directing our actions.  It seems unlikely that a supernatural God would lead or deliver us without some level of supernatural intervention.  Even if that intervention is leading someone else to help us.

 "For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever."

Starting with the obvious, any being with the ability to do anything "for ever and ever", would necessarily be supernatural.  Again, if one looks more broadly at the teachings of Jesus, it's likely that He is referring to this kingdom as being supernatural in that it expands beyond time and space.


This isn't supposed to be a deep theological treatise digging into every nook and cranny of Jesus prayer.  It's simply meant to point out that it's incredibly difficult to escape that Jesus most clear teaching on prayer was filled with language that points to a supernatural God intervening in our natural world in response to the prayers of His people.

Maybe the problem is that we misunderstand what is supernatural and fail to see the supernatural in the small things.   Obviously we can look at Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, making the blind see and the lame walk.   We can look at the fate that befell Ananias and Sapphira in Acts.  We can look at Jesus feeding thousands with little.  We can look at His death and resurrection,  There are all sorts of those kinds of things that can be dissected, I'm sure that many who say that follow Christ will argue against any or all of these things actually happening, and even more who'll insist that absolutely none of these kinds of things happen today, and if that's how you want to limit God that's your choice.   Yet, we do see things that can't adequately be explained in 100% natural terms.  Am I saying that all of those are supernatural acts of God?  No.  Am I saying that they're absolutely not?  Also no.   

I think that worshiping a God that doesn't care enough to intervene in the lives of His people, or who's too impotent to, is a god that's probably not worth our worship.

11 comments:

Marshal Art said...

Indeed, we're encouraged to pray often, including prayers seeking God's help in our lives. If He can't, won't or doesn't intervene, why bother?

I can't help but think that any refusal to acknowledge or consider supernatural influence by God in human affairs has some relationship to God's response to human behavior. The desire to continue with favored behaviors that are displeasing to God according to Scripture, or even just likely to be if some real thought was put into it, doesn't work well with the conviction that God is all present, seeing what we do and possibly guiding us through events that might seem natural, but coincidentally occurring.

Some mock certain televangelists for suggesting that 9/11 or Hurricane Katrina or some other catastrophic event is "God's way" of showing His displeasure for the cultural decay of our nation. They'll demand proof, as if any supernatural event leaves evidence of it having occurred. It's only a belief and just as the belief in God Himself is mock-worthy to the Bill Mahers of the world, "sophisticated" Christians condescend to those who believe the possibility of God's presence being tangible in such ways is a matter of faith informed by Scripture...a book those same Christians mock by their self-serving interpretations of it.

But proof isn't required. Regardless of how strongly a given believer might believe in God's Hand in our affairs, it's a belief that isn't capable of being proven, yet to such believers is a fact.

I would love for there to be proof of such things. I simply don't think we're going to find any, or else the event wouldn't be supernatural.

Craig said...

That’s an interesting take. I agree in the sense that God is going to do (or not do) whatever He wills, and He’s doing so entirely for His plans and purposes. Whether Dan (or any one else who worships mystery) acknowledges or accepts that God intervenes or not makes absolutely no difference. God doesn’t do parlor tricks to try to convince skeptics, He simply works out His will, regardless of the skeptics.

I suspect that the skeptics will be shocked at some point.

Craig said...

“We’re following a God we can’t see,
for a lifetime we can’t measure,
to a heaven we can’t comprehend,
because of grace we didn’t earn.“

Bob Goff

I’m sure some will bitch about proof.

Dan Trabue said...

Craig... "Maybe the problem is that we misunderstand what is supernatural and fail to see the supernatural in the small things."

Maybe. I certainly see the mystery and supernatural all around me, especially in nature. Miracle rainstorm after glorious sunrise after God-blessed moonrise... I see God and the supernatural in them all.

I'm just careful to distinguish between what I can PROVE to be God actually placing a rainstorm in my path and what I just take on faith. I see 100 miracles of God a day, but I don't make that as a fact claim, but as a faith claim.

Perhaps you didn't understand that?

Craig said...

"Perhaps you didn't understand that?"

Perhaps I don't. Perhaps the problem is you failing to adequately communicate.

Interesting take. The logical question would be "Faith in what?" Followed up by "Why do you have faith in X?"

We know you worship mystery, and it's interesting that you somehow find the supernatural in things literally explained by natural laws.

But, you're still seemingly confused by the notion of what exactly a fact claim is.

Dan Trabue said...

Faith in God. Faith in God's Spirit. Faith in God's community. Faith in God's love, grace and justice.

Why have faith in God? Because it makes sense to me. NOT because God does magic tricks and bloodies the nose of my enemies, but because living a life according to the teachings of my Lord, Jesus - believing in the grace and love of the community and forgiveness and working for justice, especially for the least of these - all of that makes sense to me.

A world without grace is Hell, to me. It's Trump world, quite frankly. One driving by anger and petty vengeance, and bullying and hedonism. It's very unattractive and rationally unappealing.

Why do you have faith in X?

Craig said...

Why do I have faith in God?

I believe in God as revealed in scripture because (among other things) it's insanity to see the created world around us and not believe that it came into being from any cause other than an intelligent, caring, creative, being. God as revealed in scripture provides the most all encompassing explanation for what we experience.

It's interesting that you don't want "magic tricks" (as if any Christian wants mere magic tricks), yet you demand "hard proof" and "data" for virtually anything that is slightly outside the limits of your personal experience. It's also interesting that you don't want God to "bloody the nose of your enemies", one con only assume that you're content to be assailed by your enemies with only yourself to protect you.

Finally, your inability to comment without turning it into an attack on those who don't hate Trump with the same level of venom and vitriol you do is an example of you not looking closely enough at yourself and those on your political side.

FYI, I responded to your blind partisan attack, now were done. If you continue down this road your comments will be deleted, moderated, or edited depending on how far you push and how annoyed I get. Comment how you will, but you've forfeited any right to bitch if comments don't show up.

I'm trying to be situational with these restrictions, and to allow you as much leeway as possible, but you've left me no alternative.

Dan Trabue said...

Just between you and I: Seriously, are you okay? Is the covid getting to you? Family troubles? You seem wildly emotional and irrational and you're just making no sense.

I hope you get help if you need it.

In Christ's peace,

Dan

Craig said...

This (faux?0 concern coming from you simply doesn't have the ring of sincerity about it at all.

No, I'm fine. I'll say that if you're now the objective standard of what makes sense, then we're all screwed.

Of course you being obtuse, intransigent, and divisive is just the comic relief of my day.

Trust me, even when something like your unwillingness to answer two simple questions, so that the conversation can move forward to the next step gets frustrating, I'll quickly revert to finding amusement in your struggles.

Marshal Art said...

I saw this and had to present it here, as it seemed totally relevant to the question of the supernatural...and evidence:

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/10/dan_bongino_to_undergo_surgery_on_wednesday_for_a_tumor_on_his_neck.html

The salient bit comes at the end, where the author, Peter Barry Chowka, says:

"In my career as an investigative journalist, I spent decades reporting on health care issues with a particular focus on credible innovative alternative therapies. In 1992, I was appointed as one of the first advisers to the National Institutes of Health's new Office of Alternative Medicine. I mention this experience now because at the time, the most prominent "alternative therapy" confirmed in published studies in the peer reviewed medical and scientific literature was prayer — not only prayer for one's own healing, but prayer — intercessory prayer — on behalf of others.

Preliminary studies on the value of intercessory prayer, including ones cited in the prolific popular works of Larry Dossey, M.D., noted the potential efficacy of prayer as a credible healing modality. People of faith who believe in the power of prayer, needless to say, do not need scientific studies to convince them."


Not conclusive proof, but evidence from science of "the potential efficacy of prayer as a credible healing modality." Sounds to me as if some intercession by God Himself takes place regularly.

Craig said...

I hadn't though about this, but I remember seeing these sorts of studies and that people blew them off as of no consequence.

Obviously, there is no way to determine direct cause and effect, but I'd suggest that seeing significant correlation is not something to dismiss a priori.

Although, dismissing things without investigation is a hallmark of many in our society today.