"Are any of you going to condemn unequivocally the shooting of gay folk at the Club Q in Colorado, apparently by a conservative?"
This, coming from someone who has never, to my recollection, unequivocally condemned any political violence from folks on the left. From the softball practice shootings, to the attempted assassination and illegal SCOTUS protests, to the years and years of riots, looting, and arson, or the vehicle attack in WI, I can't recall a specific, unequivocal, condemnation of any of those acts. Let alone the multitude of attacks on crisis pregnancy centers. It's always something like, "I condemn all acts of violence.", "We have no way to know who's really responsible.", "Jane's Revenge isn't really a leftist group.", "BLM had absolutely nothing to do with any riots, looting, or arson. It was a bunch of conservative provocateurs.", and the like.
My response to his nakedly political question is as follows.
I have repeatedly and consistently opposed and condemned anyone who kills innocent people, regardless of their cause or reason for doing so. The fact that you pretend as if I haven't said this multiple times, is simply another example of your double standard.
If the bland, nonspecific, vague, general, condemnation of "all" of any behavior is good enough for you to hide behind, then it's good enough for everyone else.
But, I really appreciate you jumping to a conclusion about the motives of the shooter without any actual evidence to back up your assumption.
Maybe if you'd remove the log of hypocrisy from your won eye...
49 comments:
After all these years, I expect no better from Dan.
Craig...
"It's always something like, "I condemn all acts of violence."
Well, I do. The difference is that liberals are not using demonizing language towards groups of historically oppressed people. Conservatives and the GOP DO have those within their ranks that use incendiary language towards LGBTQ folks. You all STILL have people who'd remove the right to marry from LGBTQ folks and legislate abusive policies towards transgender folks.
Because of the abusive and demonizing and oppressive language on the Right, you all who might CARE about LGBTQ have a special impetus to make clear you are opposed to this and you condemn it in no uncertain terms.
"This past election, Republican candidates ran on a platform that characterized queer and transgender people as “groomers.” They targeted the families that support them as criminals. And many of the candidates talking like this won their races. In less than a decade, the right has managed to breathe new life into an old, dangerous narrative — queer and transgender people are threats to children and to the health of the nation. This strategic scapegoating is by design."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2022-11-20/colorado-springs-club-q-shooting-republican-anti-gay-politics%3f_amp=true
THIS is why the GOP world needs to clearly condemn these attacks. Listen to LGBTQ people and they will tell you in no uncertain terms that they do not feel safe because of the language and policies of conservatives and the GOP. Did you know that? Does it disturb you that people are actively afraid of how conservatives will harm them?
Just this week I heard from a beloved transgender friend that their parents told them not to come to Thanksgiving. Do you know the harm that causes?
I assured them that we will be family to them, as did other allies. Still, it hurts like he'll.
Just ask. They'll tell you.
"The difference is that liberals are not using demonizing language towards groups of historically oppressed people."
I've posted this before, and can probably do so if needed, but I'd say that liberals using all sorts of racist terms to refer to conservative black people, as "demonizing language towards groups of historically oppressed people.". But that's just me.
I need to note that Dan doesn't start by specifically condemning any of the listed acts by those on his side. Instead he does exactly what he always does and goes with the vague, general, bland bullshit.
He then chooses not to judge me as an individual by the same standard he judges his own actions, but to attempt to portray me as responsible for some vague, unproven, non specific, claims about what some anonymous people might have said. (Ignoring the reality that the first amendment protects all speech)
"This past election, Republican candidates ran on a platform that characterized queer and transgender people as “groomers.”
If the above is True, then it should be very easy to provide specific language of the specific candidates and platforms that "characterized" all "transgender people as "groomers". I'll eagerly await the proof of this claim. The Op/Ed piece you offered doesn't provide any specific instances of your claim.
"Did you know that?"
I know you've said it. I know you've tried to broad brush millions of people based on your hunches about the words of a few people.
"Does it disturb you that people are actively afraid of how conservatives will harm them?"
No, because I don't take responsibility for things that I can't control. I don't try to paint individual people with some vague, broad brush, generalized bullshit.
"Just this week I heard from a beloved transgender friend that their parents told them not to come to Thanksgiving. Do you know the harm that causes?"
Ohhhhhh, the unsubstantiated anecdote ploy.
This is just a tour de force of Dan's greatest hits.
Every comment so far boils down to, some version of blame the other guy. The fact that I specifically hadn't commented on one specific incident because (as usual) I was waiting for more information and facts before I did so, probably won't matter. What does matter is that Dan has one more opportunity to try to use a tragedy to score cheap political points, while again refusing to hold himself and his allies to the same standard he demands of others.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/23/us/colorado-springs-club-q-shooting-wednesday/index.html
I can't help but suspect that Dan will go through all sorts of contortions to ignore this particular news story and it's implications. It's easier to stick with a narrative regardless of what the actual facts might show us. It's easier to make cheap political points, instead of waiting for more information and not jumping to conclusions.
https://winteryknight.com/2022/11/23/who-was-responsible-for-anti-lgbt-attacks-in-colorado-springs-and-new-york-city/
As this shows, the default "It's all mean conservatives" narrative that Dan loves so much, might not actually be True in all cases.
Maybe there's a lesson to be learned about jumping to conclusions.
Craig...
"If the above is True, then it should be very easy to provide specific language of the specific candidates and platforms that "characterized" all "transgender people as "groomers"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/20/republicans-grooming-democrats/
But then, as your claim about an "anecdotal ploy" illustrates, none of this is a secret to the LGBTQ community and their allies. Families disinfecting family members from holiday events or even just kicking them out of the family is an everyday event. Again I ask you, do you not know how very common such rejection is? How common such demonization is amongst GOP politicians ?
That detached-from-reality privilege itself is part of the problem. Pretending to believe that LGBTQ people are overreacting is, itself, part of the gaslighting and oppression of LGBTQ folk.
Have you ever asked LGBTQ friends and family how oppressed they are by GOP types? If not, why not?
As to the shooter being trans, if you listen to LGBTQ people, they will tell you it's not uncommon to find people broken by self-loathing BECAUSE of the oppression coming towards them from family members or conservative
Or maybe not in this case.
The point of asking you about this case was more about pointing out how the LGBTQ community needs to be hearing words of support right now. And those words of comfort and support were everywhere from liberals but I couldn't find one kind supportive word from conservatives. Including you.
What an indictment.
A "couple" of things:
I also find it absurd to hear Dan demand we speak out whenever his cherished pervs are harmed, threatened or otherwise at risk, yet when good, normal people are, we're to just assume he opposes violence as a rule and how absurd we should expect him to mention, say, some guy shooting up a ball field of Republicans.
Your CNN link grates with its choice of abiding the "pronouns" of the shooter. It also had a link to Colorado law enforcement being careful not to "misgender" victims or patrons of the bar, as if professionals should indulge the delusions and disorder of delusional, disordered people. It's especially unprofessional for journalists to do so and by doing so, make getting information a mess of confusion for readers to unpack.
We're hearing a lot of crap regarding this new nonsense "stochastic terrorism", which is another leftist lie, in this case used to regard any and all things said by conservatives about cherished positions of lefties as incitements to violence. Dan has been indulging this absurdity for a long time, which includes his constant referencing of "historic oppression" as if that has any relevance to anything.
"Just this week I heard from a beloved transgender friend that their parents told them not to come to Thanksgiving. Do you know the harm that causes?"
What a surprise! Dan has "a beloved transgender friend"! I wonder if Dan gives a flying rat's ass about the harm to parents when their kids turn out to be selfish and immoral pervs. But to Dan, no one matters but the pervs. All must bow down and subordinate all they hold dear to the whims and whining of the pervs.
"Listen to LGBTQ people and they will tell you in no uncertain terms that they do not feel safe because of the language and policies of conservatives and the GOP."
As I mentioned to Dan regarding an article listing "hate crimes" against his beloved pervs, it appears that many of them, if not most, are neither motivated by any particular disdain for the pervs, or are committed by other pervs. Yet, the pervs will tell you in no uncertain terms they feel unsafe because of people who aren't actually doing them any harm.
"In less than a decade, the right has managed to breathe new life into an old, dangerous narrative — queer and transgender people are threats to children and to the health of the nation."
The danger of this narrative is how true it is. Tucker Carlson has interviewed at least twice in recent weeks a woman from a group called "Gays Against Grooming" (the actual name may be slightly different, but that's the purpose of this group). It's interesting a "gay" group recognizes the harm done to children by members of their own community. But I'm unaware of any conservatives twerking in front of kids while dressed as caricatures of tramps and whores, or of any conservatives supporting the lie of transgender mutilation of perfectly healthy, functioning young bodies.
While one can feel good about a "gay" group "coming out" (so to speak) against the vile behaviors threatening children, it can't be ignored that the "advances" made by the "gay" community are directly related to the current abhorrent sexualizing children. Were good people more courageous of withstanding the slings and arrows of the "gay" community any time good people moved to thwart their agenda, we wouldn't be seeing this crap today, and there'd be no "gay" marriage codified in law anywhere in this once great nation. I don't know if that nonsense will ever be reversed, despite the whining due to the Dobbs decision and the great Clarence Thomas words regarding other court cases, but it should be. It was a travesty of judicial activism and not based on anything Constitutional.
I don’t understand where Trabue got the idea that the shooter was “apparently” a conservative. There was originally no evidence one way or another, but Trabue assumes it would have to be a conservative. And now that the facts are out, Trabue should be embarrassed.
"Just this week I heard from a beloved transgender friend that their parents told them not to come to Thanksgiving. Do you know the harm that causes?”
I don’t care what “harm” it would cause the “transgender” but I wouldn’t want a pervert at my Thanksgiving; it would be demonstrating support of his perversion. These people have a demented mind and should not be coddled in their delusions.
Glenn,
It's simply Dan's default position. He jumps to certain conclusions regardless of evidence, or lack thereof, on certain topics. When the evidence comes is that militates against his default position, he tends to go silent.
Dan posts one single link that, as far as I could see, had no actual language from any actual party platform, nor any direct quotes from the individual in question that stated that he was referring to large groups of people as "groomers".
"But then, as your claim about an "anecdotal ploy" illustrates,"
You literally do this regularly. You offer some vague anecdote as if it actually is proof of some larger phenomenon.
"Have you ever asked LGBTQ friends and family how oppressed they are by GOP types? If not, why not?"
I've never heard one of my LGBTQXYZPDQ friends complain about this. Even if I had, that's not evidence of some larger, official, party platform.
The point of asking me about this case was much morel likely to try to score cheap rhetorical points based on your assumptions about a situation. My pointing out your hypocrisy, was simply a reasonable response to your hypocrisy. The fact that you are simply making shit up to blame "conservatives" for this shooting, is telling.
The initial reports about this shooter were:
1. Another attack specifically on LGBTQ people
2. The shooter is the grandchild of an ultra-conservative MAGA GOP politician
3. The shooter was being charged with hate crimes...
Given that, thinking that this person was of conservative background was/is not unreasonable.
What we know now is that the shooter is requesting being identified as they/them. But are they a transgender person or is this just another stab at/attempt to mock LGBTQ folks? We don't yet know.
My assumptions are not unreasonable given the facts we know so far.
And again, MY point was that I was not seeing conservatives come to the defense of the LGBTQ community and I'm wondering why not?
I'm STILL wondering.
As to blaming conservatives, when you all continue to mock, belittle, demonize and marginalize, misunderstanding and criminalize LGBTQ people IS part of the problem. I'm wondering at what point you all will acknowledge your part of the problem and accept the blame for contributing to the problem.
I've had to do so and continue to try to be an ally to fellow human beings who have been historically oppressed.
Repentance is a good thing.
Which simply serves to make my point. You chose to jump to a conclusion based on incomplete facts, and are now choosing to downplay additional facts as they don't support your initial conclusion.
I'm wondering when you'll stop trying to blame people for actions allegedly engaged in by others.
When will conservatives finally repent of the harm they - YOU - are causing?
I mean, sure, the white folk who didn't own slaves back in the day - BUT, who didn't speak out against the oppression and racism of slavery - sure, they didn't actively enslave people. But their silence in the face of the problem was part of the problem.
Speak out against the oppressors, Craig. Until you do so, you are part of the problem.
But, you still don't get it, do you?
Craig...
"Which simply serves to make my point..."
That you can say that serves to make MY point that you're just not getting the points correctly.
Those points being...
1. That conservatives are WIDELY perceived as being hostile towards the LGBTQ community. See the Texas law criminalizing parents being supportive of their transgender children and other clear attacks against the LGBTQ community and their allies. Again, just ASK.
2. That failing to even acknowledge that reality is a form of gaslighting and a denial of the threats facing LGBTQ people.
3. That refusing to speak out against conservative/GOP attacks and demonization only increases the likelihood of such deadly events like this shooting.
The reality is that liberal people don't attack LGBTQ people for being LGBTQ, because, why would we?
While it's possible that this shooter did the shooting not based on conservative doctrine and demonization, the odds are against it. And regardless, good people should be speaking out in support of and alliance with LGBTQ people.
"1. Another attack specifically on LGBTQ people"
As if there's lots of them.
"2. The shooter is the grandchild of an ultra-conservative MAGA GOP politician"
Which means absolutely nothing. Alan Keyes is a staunch defender of God's will regarding sexual morality, yet his daughter...not "granddaughter", but daughter...is a lesbian. How lame to see this (assuming it's true about the grandparent) as an excuse to celebrate.
"3. The shooter was being charged with hate crimes..."
Pretty much automatic these days, as such a charge is only considered for certain groups who are victimized when the perp is not of that group...which might not be the case here.
"Given that, thinking that this person was of conservative background was/is not unreasonable."
It's far more reasonable to assume that lefties like you will jump to the conclusion that conservatism is the reason for that which is normally simple mental illness or leftist criminality. It's how you roll. Truly reasonable people keep their mouths shut until all the facts are known.
"What we know now is that the shooter is requesting being identified as they/them. But are they a transgender person or is this just another stab at/attempt to mock LGBTQ folks? We don't yet know."
We know all we need to know about what he claims about himself. According to the very people you defend, he's "transgender" merely because he claims he is and no one has the right to question it. Given the percentage of attacks on LGBT people perpetrated by other LGBT people, this is no less likely than anything else.
"And again, MY point was that I was not seeing conservatives come to the defense of the LGBTQ community and I'm wondering why not?"
Because murder victims who are LGBT are not more deserving of special concern than other murder victims. Personally, I'm far more concerned about the hundreds of thousands of people murdered in utero every year and wonder why leftists never come to their defense. LGBT people can run, hide and/or fight back, which some did only after a straight guy put himself on the line.
"As to blaming conservatives, when you all continue to mock, belittle, demonize and marginalize, misunderstanding and criminalize LGBTQ people IS part of the problem."
Opposing a clearly immoral and disordered worldview is not mocking, belittling, demonizing, marginalizing, misunderstanding or criminalizing. That's only what defenders of perversion call it, because of an incredible lack of legit argument. The true problem is the demand by those compelled by this disorder that good people (conservatives and true Christians) must join in with the sin of legitimizing it legally and culturally. We're under no such obligation. It is on you people to bring forth a legit argument you don't have.
"I'm wondering at what point you all will acknowledge your part of the problem and accept the blame for contributing to the problem."
Maybe when we're actually guilty of wrongdoing. By your logic, we're part of the problem of the marginalization of child molesters, thieves, murderers, liars, the lazy, etc. Bad behaviors are worthy of marginalization at the very least. They're worthy of no better. Those who insist on engaging in them are therefor also worthy.
"I've had to do so and continue to try to be an ally to fellow human beings who have been historically oppressed. "
You're an ally to the willfully sinful...those in total rebellion against the God you only pretend to worship. You've absolutely no such concerned for the truly oppressed people in utero whose humanity you refuse to acknowledge.
"Repentance is a good thing."
And yet you reject it, preferring instead to continue your reprobate ways.
Trabue,
I mean, sure, the white folk who didn't own slaves back in the day - BUT, who didn't speak out against the oppression and racism of slavery - sure, they didn't actively enslave people. But their silence in the face of the problem was part of the problem.
My great-great-grandfather was an officer in the 113th Ohio Voluteer Infantry and marched with Sherman. I've always spoken against slavery, but I also speak against reparations for people whose family were slaves at least 3-4 generations ago. We paid their reparations by freeing them. No one alive today deserves one cent because of slavery. And I always speak against REAL racism.
"When will conservatives finally repent of the harm they - YOU - are causing?"
1. In the absence of you providing one specific example of where I have caused specific harm to a specific person, the above is simply more of your broad brush tactics.
2. I don't see any example of someone repenting for the actions of others who are totally unrelated to them.
No, I get it. I get it very well.
1. Perception is not reality.
2. What in the hell are you talking about? You're right that I don't acknowledge your hunches about what some vague, unidentified, group of people might perceive, are "reality". Because the reality is that your hunches about what some vague, unidentified group of people might perceive are not reality.
3. Please prove this claim with actual peer reviewed, scientific studies, from neutral/unbiased organizations, or retract this bullshit.
"The reality is that liberal people don't attack LGBTQ people for being LGBTQ, because, why would we?"
Again with the unproven claims, such bullshit. You probably believe that liberals don't attack certain blacks with vicious racist slanders on a regular basis either. Do you realize how stupid such unproven, broad, vague, meaningless claims make you sound? It's not like liberals don't attack other groups for other reasons, even though you pretend to ignore that reality. IN both the CO case, and the recent NY case, the current evidence leads to the conclusions that the shooters were not conservative or motivated by hate for LGBTQXYZPDQ people.
Please provide specific examples (quotes and links) of conservatives who "attack LGBTQ people for being LGBTQ" only.
"The shooter was being charged with hate crimes..."
You do know that "charged with" is not the same as guilty of or even convicted of, don't you?
But hey, why wait for more evidence, when you can jump in half cocked and blame people with no proof?
I love how Dan ignores my point in this. That being that I've already condemned all shootings of innocent people regardless of the motivation.
Again with the Dan double standard.
Art,
You make an excellent point. Dan, and much of the APL has been insisting that someone identifying themselves as trans/non binary/or any other "sexual orientation" is all we need to know. They've insisted that we must believe these people no matter what they claim. That we should ignore the evidence of our own eyes, and believe them. They've also claimed that no one would even claim to be trans/non binary/any other "sexual orientation" falsely in order to benefit themselves. Yet now we see an "expert" on CNN telling us that merely looking at this person is enough to definitively determine that he's not "non binary", and now we have Dan insinuating that he's probably lying about being non binary in order to benefit himself.
Again with the double standards.
Glenn,
It's strange that millions of soldiers fighting for the Union in the civil war, hundreds of thousands of casualties, and untold devastation of civilians in the states that supported the Union get brushed off as "silence".
It's equally strange that as we live in a world where more humans are enslaved than at any time in history (especially if you include political prisoner labor) folx like Dan are more worked up about something that happened 150 years ago, than about what's happening now. Silence as the liberal head of Apple helps China oppress their citizens, but outrage that Twitter is becoming more free and less restricted.
We live in a strange world where the sins of the past, get more vocal outrage than the sins of the present.
By all means, let's not forget those who valiantly risked life and limb to and slavery in this country. If we're going to consider reparations, shouldn't we factor in their sacrifices as well?
Glenn...
We paid their reparations by freeing them.
We'll be sure to pass this information on the descendants of slaves and Jim Crow survivors. I'm sure they'll be glad that your white self has declared what is right for them.
Just another cracker presuming that HE is the one who gets to decide.
Good Lord, have mercy.
Craig...
t's strange that millions of soldiers fighting for the Union in the civil war, hundreds of thousands of casualties, and untold devastation of civilians in the states that supported the Union get brushed off as "silence".
So, in 1860s, hundreds of years after the slave trade to the Americas began, some people fought to end slavery. That's good, as far as it goes. But there WAS the 200 + years of silence and acquiescence.
But go on, you ivory tower boys, tell us about how good the good white people have been to black people over our history. We'll all listen to you because, as always, conservative white men know what's best for everyone else.
Again, Good Lord, have mercy.
As to the rest, you continue to miss the point and worse, you don't even understand that you've missed the point and when I explain it to you, you STILL miss the point.
Good luck, Bubbas.
Craig...
They've also claimed that no one would even claim to be trans/non binary/any other "sexual orientation" falsely in order to benefit themselves.
That you are ignorant of what we are and are not claiming is not our problem. OF COURSE, in the real world, there are some bigots who say things like, "Well, I'm he/him, too!" to try to mock LGBTQ folks. There ARE some bigots who "act gay" in order to try to mock and belittle LGBTQ folks.
You are simply mistaken about what we are and are not saying.
Your inability to understand nuance and context and circumstances and depth of meanings is probably why you all have such a hard time making sense of the Bible's teachings, as well as the written word in general.
"When will conservatives finally repent of the harm they - YOU - are causing?"
What "harm"? The rampant murder of people in utero to the tune of hundreds of thousands per year? The mutilation of children in service of the false "trans" agenda? The grooming of kids by adult perverts prancing about dressed as whorish caricatures of women? How about the harm of releasing pedophiles from California detention centers? How about the releasing of other violent criminals on the pretext of Covid infection? How about the releasing of violent criminals via no-cash bail policies? How about the harm of people losing their jobs, their businesses, their incomes because they reject the lies of the LGBT activists? How about the harm done to hundreds of minority people and businesses and other properties after lying about "racist cops targeting innocent black dudes"? This is just the tip of the iceberg. If you want to try to go tit for tat, you're gonna lose yet again.
"Speak out against the oppressors, Craig."
There are no oppressors worse than those who defend and implement the practice of murdering the most innocent and defenseless of our kind in utero as if there's ever legit justification for doing so. The whining of the LGBT crowd is unworthy of attention by honest people of character and those who strive to be among them.
But, you still don't get it, do you, Dan? (rhetorical question. You just don't care about actual oppression.)
"1. That conservatives are WIDELY perceived as being hostile towards the LGBTQ community."
That's a lie. Conservatives are widely and falsely asserted as being hostile towards the LGBT community. In the meantime, the LGBT community and their enabling suckers are factually hostile towards conservatives. Opposing an immoral lifestyle driven by mental disorder is not hostility, but accusing conservatives for such opposition is.
"See the Texas law criminalizing parents being supportive of their transgender children and other clear attacks against the LGBTQ community and their allies."
The Texas law protects children from the perverse ideology of adults, some of whom are the parents of the children put at risk. There are no "attacks" against LGBT pervs and their sheep-like enablers. There's only truth they find inconvenient.
"Again, just ASK."
Yeah, and I'm sure we'll get truthful responses from disordered people acting immorally. Not necessary. In the meantime, one question they and you won't answer concerns hearing from family members of these patients who claim they were unjustly cast off. One-sided stories are already well known. They aren't compelling until we can hear the other side in order to make an assessment.
"2. That failing to even acknowledge that reality is a form of gaslighting and a denial of the threats facing LGBTQ people."
There's no reality conservatives fail to acknowledge. There's very little reality LGBT people honestly relate. Jussie Smollett anyone?
"3. That refusing to speak out against conservative/GOP attacks and demonization only increases the likelihood of such deadly events like this shooting."
What "attacks"? Be extremely specific instead of pretending. In the meantime, I'll concern myself with the constant false attacks by those like you of conservatives and the GOP. By the way, I watch two Fox shows pretty regularly...Carlson and Guttfeld. You'd be surprised by how many homosexuals and lesbians are regularly interviewed on these shows. It's worrisome, but clearly demonstrates you don't know jack about conservatives.
"The reality is that liberal people don't attack LGBTQ people for being LGBTQ, because, why would we?"
Given the percentage of "hate crimes" against LGBT people perpetrated by actual LGBT people, that's a really stupid thing to say. But yeah, it's absurd to suggest that lefties have a problem with immoral people. Most of you are immoral.
"While it's possible that this shooter did the shooting not based on conservative doctrine and demonization, the odds are against it."
The data doesn't support this desperate wish at all.
"...good people should be speaking out in support of and alliance with LGBTQ people."
Actual "good" people...the only good people you know you oppose on the blogs...defend all people against unjust violence. But good people don't support and ally themselves with sexually immoral people who band together in groups of immoral people to advance their immorality in the culture through activism. Sick bastards do that. I will never lift a finger to support this clear abomination in any way, shape or form. And while I oppose anyone who actively seeks to subject them to physical harm, I'm not particularly sad upon hearing when it befalls them. When people openly indulge their immoral urges, shit happens.
I love it when Dan has the temerity to lie about what I've actually said, while trying to make the point that I'm wrong about what what the left is "really" saying.
I do find it strange that folx on the left (including Biden's press secretary) have to spend so much time clarifying what leftists are "really" saying. It's almost like they can't say what they "really" mean the first time.
So, in 1860s, hundreds of years after the slave trade to the Americas began, some people fought to end slavery. That's good, as far as it goes. But there WAS the 200 + years of silence and acquiescence.
Anyone not totally ignorant of history would know that thousands of northerners, especially Christians, spoke out against slavery from the beginning of it arriving in the colonies.
During the mid-to-late 1700s, the Revolutionary period, the nation’s Founders “limited and eventually outlawed the importation of slaves…; they abolished slavery in a majority of the original states; they forbade the expansion of slavery into areas where it had not been previously permitted; they made laws regulating slavery more humane…”
At the Constitutional Convention in 1787 slavery was very much a part of the discussions. Even rich slave-owners discussed the problem of slavery; George Mason said it was “a slow poison…daily contaminating the Minds and Morals of our People.” He even said that holding slaves would “bring the judgement of heaven on a Country…As nations cannot be rewarded or punished in the next world they must be in this. By and inevitable chain of causes & effects providence punishes national sins, by national calamities.” He only reflected the beliefs of many there. John Jay was said to be a “tireless worker for abolition.”
The “Missouri Compromise of 1820” was a law that tried to address growing sectional tensions over the issue of slavery. i.e, huge numbers of people, including those in government were doing their best to limit slavery. John Quincy Adams opposed annexation of Texas because it would inevitably lead to spreading slavery.
The Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 was one of many measures (“Compromise of 1850”) to have a government compromise between the pro-slavery and the anti-slavery factions, i.e. a whole lot of anti-slavery people existed and were vocal enough that a compromise was made to avoid a civil war at THAT time.
I could cite page after page from historical documents, etc, proving that people and those in government spoke continually against slavery up to and including during the Civil War. The was never any silence and only temporary "acquiescence" to avoid war.
Remember, it was the Demokrats who later developed and instituted the “Jim Crow” laws.
Marshal asked...
What "harm"?
"LGBT people are nearly
four times more likely
than non-LGBT people to experience
violent victimization, including
rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault,
according to a new study by the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law.
In addition, LGBT people are more likely to experience violence both by someone well-known to the victim and at the hands of a stranger."
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-lgbt-violence-press-release/
Marshal, continuing to defend/dismiss/ignore the attacks (physical, verbal and emotional) on LGBTQ folks, said...
That's a lie. Conservatives are widely and falsely asserted as being hostile towards the LGBT community.
So, NEARLY EVERY LGBTQ person I know or have read about will assert that the reality is that they have been demonized, assaulted and verbally and physically attacked, but MARSHAL says it doesn't happen. Who should we listen to? The privileged pervert who defends and promotes these attacks, justifying them because IN HIS TINY GRACELESS HEART AND MIND, he thinks of them as less than suitable humans using all manner of graceless, harmful words to attack them (ie, Marshal), OR the people who are actually experiencing the harm?
Get serious.
Again, just last week, one of my colleagues was disinvited for Thanksgiving. Last Christmas, at least two LGBTQ folks I know were either disinvited for the holidays or allowed to come, but then verbally abused and mocked.
These stories happen for nearly EVERY LGBTQ person I know or have read about. Where in the name of all that is good and holy do you actual perverts living your life of mainstream privilege get off denying these realities? THAT IS, itself, yet another on the personhood and integrity of the LGBTQ community. Stop it. Just stop it.
Craig, take a stand for decency and don't allow these perverts to make these sorts of sick, harmful attacks here. APOLOGIZE yourself for the harmful comments and denying of the attacks on your part. Be a good man. Repent.
Speaking of...
Craig...
I love it when Dan has the temerity to lie about what I've actually said
The reality is that I have not lied about anything. This claim, itself, is a witless lie with NO SUPPORT. Just another in the endless stream of false claims coming from today's modern so-called "christian" so-called "conservatives."
IF you could point to a single lie I've written, I could apologize for it and admit you were right and I've misspoken. But as history has shown us, you will not support your baseless false attack on me, just as you deny your part in the actual historic oppression of gay folk.
Stop it. Repent. Do better.
Glenn... Oh YASS! Massa Glenn, we all knows how good you benevolent whiteys have been to black folks through the ages. We know because you privileged white boys keep asserting it, as if it means a thing.
NO ONE has said that black people haven't had white allies in their fight for their own freedoms, cracker. But, the reality is that slavery and them the slavery and racism of Jim Crow IMPOSED upon black people throughout our history BY the white majority, the majority of which claimed to be Christian throughout that same history. Since 1619 through 1960s and beyond, black people have been oppressed by the white majority as a point of demonstrable fact. Some of that has happened actively and by design by many white people and a great part of it happened by the quiet acquiescences of even more white people - the vast majority. But hell, 50 our of 400 years of less oppression by white people on black people is not bad, right?
Quit trying to ease your lily white conscience living in your privileged ivory tower, Glenn. If the Southern Baptists can acknowledge and apologize for all those years of white oppression of black people, you can, too.
Where do you get off?
"So, NEARLY EVERY LGBTQ person I know or have read about will assert that the reality is that they have been demonized, assaulted and verbally and physically attacked,..."
The "Believe my anecdotal claims" canard.
"Craig, take a stand for decency and don't allow these perverts to make these sorts of sick, harmful attacks here. APOLOGIZE yourself for the harmful comments and denying of the attacks on your part. Be a good man. Repent."
Why, I let you say virtually anything you want, are you suggesting one more double standard be applied to your speech that I don't apply to others? I realize this is the opposite of a 1st amendment issue, but a big focus of !A is to protect virtually ALL speech, strangely enough You are the one suggesting that I censor speech that you don't like.
"The reality is that I have not lied about anything."
Ahhhhhhhh. The "Reality is what I say it is." canard. Thank goodness that you don't define reality.
"IF you could point to a single lie I've written, I could apologize for it and admit you were right and I've misspoken."
Yet, I do this frequently and you never seem to address it when I do.
"But as history has shown us, you will not support your baseless false attack on me,..."
Ahhhhhhh. The "I'm a victim, so I can do what I please." tactic. Please show me one specific example.
"...just as you deny your part in the actual historic oppression of gay folk"
Ahhhhhhhhh. The "Have you stopped beating your wife yet." old faithful.
It's strange that you can't actually provide one specific instance where my specific words or actions have done what you claim, yet you act is if your unproven claim is True. The reality is that the above is literally a lie. It is 100% not True, it is completely false. You have zero evidence to back up or prove your falsehood, yet you go right ahead and throw down this blad faced lie.
I could list my anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but we've seen recently how little attention you pay to the lived experience of others, while placing great value on your own anecdotes.
Let’s see: liar Dan posted this statement:
So, in 1860s, hundreds of years after the slave trade to the Americas began, some people fought to end slavery. That's good, as far as it goes. But there WAS the 200 + years of silence and acquiescence.
I PROVED that there was no silence from the people or from the government in regards to slavery.
Dan, in his ignorant and childish behavior, starts in with the ad hominem attacks (Oh YASS! Massa) and pretends to represent black people. He writes, NO ONE has said that black people haven't had white allies in their fight for their own freedoms, cracker. , totally lying about what he previously wrote— that there was just silence and acquiescence. He didn’t write that some people acted that way, he just made a blanket statement and NOW contradicts himself when proven wrong.
Oh, I’m not a cracker, saltine or otherwise; I’m a human being. “Cracker” is a racist term used by racist blacks—and so is “whitey.”
Whites will always be the majority since blacks represent around 13% of the population. No, it wasn’t the majority of whites in the USA who treated blacks poorly, but it apparently was the majority in the south—you know, DEMOKRAT territory.
No, blacks haven’t been oppressed under Demokrat Jim Crow laws since the late 1960s.
More racism calling me “lily white” and insulting me with racist speech of white privilege — a privilege which doesn’t exist to begin with, and especially with me! I had to always be by-passed for positions because “affirmative action” didn’t promote the most qualified, rather it promoted those with the darkest skin.
I have nothing to apologize for because I have never oppressed ANYONE. And, as noted previously, my great-great-grandfather (and his brother) both fought the war to FREE slaves.
And, by the way, talking about racism, "we all knows" is stereotyping language of blacks. You are such a racist in real life while you go around sucking up to black people as someone to be honored. You're a fake in everything you do. You're just a narcissist looking for praise from blacks and perverts, all the while pretending to be a Christian while displaying demonic beliefs.
Craig...
It's strange that you can't actually provide one specific instance where my specific words or actions have done what you claim, yet you act is if your unproven claim is True.
When there is an oppressed people - black people, women, LGBTQ folks - in the history of a society (and those are all historically oppressed groups, in reality)
THEN, when people (you) deny and downplay that oppression and the harm caused to those groups...
When people (you) incredibly act as if LGBTQ folk do not report being harmed by their conservative families and friends when it's common knowledge;
When people (you) dismiss my real life report of people I know in the real world being told not to come home for the holidays...
THEN those people (you) are contributing to the societal oppression and harm of that group of people. It's not that you, personally, are disinviting LGBTQ folks from your home or church... you're part of the larger conservative collective that are denying the harm done to LGBTQ folks. THAT collective dismissal and gaslighting is harmful when it happens to people who've been historically abused, oppressed, harmed, demonized.
Hell, the way that conservatives (and too many liberals back in the day) denied loving marital bliss to gay/lesbian couples pushed them into a hidden subculture that found family and community in lifestyles that often led to harm.
I'll find some articles to point this all out to you, but really, man, it's 2022. This is common knowledge.
Are you saying you're IGNORANT of the way that historically oppressed groups are harmed societally by collective demonization and denial of their humanity? That transgender folks are harmed by dead-naming and misgendering by people like you? And the silence of others like you when it happens?
You're not aware of this?
Do you misgender? (I assume you know what dead-naming and misgendering is, right?)
Do you call out your conservative Christian friends when they misgender?
Do you condemn conservative efforts to kick transgender people out of public bathrooms?
If you do, do you condemn conservatives who support those efforts and fight to stop them?
Dan...
"...just as you deny your part in the actual historic oppression of gay folk"
Ahhhhhhhhh. The "Have you stopped beating your wife yet." old faithful.
As a point of reality, the LGBTQ community has been oppressed throughout our history (throughout much of history in most places.
Do you deny that?
As a point of reality, the LGBTQ community has been called (regularly, just assumed, really) "demonic" "not Christian," "diabolical," "the reason Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed." And this, by Christians (and other religions). As a point of reality, historically, gay folk have not been allowed to marry the person of their choice. As a point of reality, LGBTQ have been criminalized. And this is continuing today, with Texas, et al, in their criminalizing support for transgender children and teens.
Historically, LGBTQ people have been mocked, made fun of, assaulted, beaten, kicked out of families... and often by people identifying as Christian.
These are all just real world history, including recent history.
Do you deny any of that reality?
You recognize the reality that the Southern Baptists recently apologized for the part in oppressing black people and supporting slavery, right? Even though, at the time, the Southern Baptists defending slavery and racism didn't think they were doing anything wrong, right?
Do you think it's reasonable that, at some point, good Christians in the future will apologize for their part in oppressing gay folk?
I suspect that, rather than you've never done anything to oppress and harm LGBTQ folks, you just don't recognize the wrong you've done. I mean, I didn't at the time that I was taking part in oppressing gay people.
Do you think that's at least possible - that you're failing to understand the oppression you've taken part in - given our fallible human condition?
Have you condemned these policies (below)? IF NOT, you are either remaining silent in the face of harm or actively promoting them. Both are wrong and lead to harm.
https://fenwayhealth.org/anti-transgender-bills-threaten-to-harm-the-health-of-trans-youth-by-limiting-access-to-health-care-denying-access-to-athletic-activities-and-contributing-to-stigma-and-discrimination/
I don't condemn such policies. Transgenderism is a perversion of GOd's creation as well as a fraud to begin with. NO ONE can change their gender; you are either male or female and cannot change to the other regardless of how much mutilatio you do to your body.
These policies are there so as to NOT support these mentally-demented people.
Re: Dan's link...
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-lgbt-violence-press-release/
I saw nothing which breaks things down to a point which compels true concern for this group of people, as by Dan's own snippet, it affirms violence perpetrated by their own. I also didn't see anything which separated victims from reports...that is, how many times the same victim reports versus how many separate victims report. This is an important distinction as I wouldn't assert honesty on the part of disordered people seeking to legitimize their disorder and the behavior which flows from it.
Secondly, this is the same institute which also did a study on intimate partner violence:
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/ipv-sex-abuse-lgbt-people/
...and in doing so shows it's more common among your cherished pervs. They hedge by saying "as high or higher". It can't be both, so which is it? Their stats suggest higher and thus, to cite studies about how victimized they are without acknowledging or being specific that it does NOT include violence perpetrated among them is dishonest, though typical of those who defend the indefensible.
More later...
40% of LGBTQ have been rejected by family members (a huge improvement from even 25 years ago!). 30% report being physically threatened or assaulted.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gay-lesbian-bisexual-transgender-survey-finds-nearly-4-in-10-rejected-by-family-or-friend/
Perhaps that helps you understand the oppression that LGBTQ folks still live under.
Dan has no actual evidence that I've done what he claims I've done, nothing at all specific to point to quote or link to. All he has is conjecture based on inferences, biases, prejudices, and assumptions. But then he tacks on a few questions to try to get me to give him the proof he otherwise lacks.
If you can't prove your claims, don't expect me to do it for you.
"Do you deny that?"
No, I do not deny that a significant portion of the world treats LQBTQWXYZPDQ folx is ways that you find oppressive. What I don't hear or see is you doing anything about actual oppression.
Craig...
What I don't hear or see is you doing anything about actual oppression.
That is, I suspect, because you have blinded yourself and isolated yourself from the concerns of LGBTQ folk. ASK THEM if they have been oppressed, denied, demonized, ostrasized, kicked out of their homes and churches. ASK them how that has harmed them.
Or better yet, read the Bible and try to understand why God and biblical authors and prophets routinely advise us to side with the poor, marginalized and "least of these..."
I guess you've seen that a well-known conservative Congressperson's daughter had self-harm issues following her coming out (at 14) as bisexual. We of course don't know the circumstances in this case and she should have her privacy protected, but you may or may not know that self-harm is not unusual for some in the LGBTQ community, especially when they perceive their family/friends/community as viewing their natural God-given orientation/gender as "bad" or "evil" and "not Christian."
These are examples of the harm that comes when people like you or I (once upon a time) are tacitly condemning of just being LGBTQ. When people dead-name or misgender trans folks, when people are opposed to equal marriage opportunities for LGBTQ people, when people say things like "gay mirage" or "transgenderism is a perversion of GOD's creation..." etc, etc, as conservatives still do way too often, given the real history of demonization and actual, active oppression and marginalization, this often leads to actual harm and suicide attempts. And even when conservatives don't overtly oppose marriage rights or trans people going to, you know, the bathroom... when those same conservatives remain silent as their colleagues and compatriots actively fight to demonize and criminalize and "pervert-ize" LGBTQ people, that too, leads to an atmosphere of oppression.
When good people do nothing/remain silent in the face of evil and oppression, they are lending support to the evil oppressors and against the oppressed.
You know this well-known Truth to be valid, right?
So why would you not condemn Glenn and Marshal for their hateful attacks? Why would you not state clearly that you are supportive of LGBTQ people and opposed to conservatives like them?
Which side will you be on?
Craig...
"What I don't hear or see is you doing anything about actual oppression."
See, when you say things like that, it is seen as dismissive of the actual oppression, now and historically, of LGBTQ people. Are you saying that you DON'T acknowledge the actual oppression and marginalization of LGBTQ people?
I think part of the problem that many people coming from privileged majority safety is that they don't understand the depth of harm that comes from being marginalized, have marginalization thrust upon them.
If we consider a young man whose parents disowned because he chose to be a mechanic and they really wanted him to be a doctor or lawyer. That would hurt the man, of course, but it would be a weird quirk of the parents. It's not like society at large considers mechanics to be evil. It's not like mechanics have been historically oppressed.
But if your family rejects you because of something as innate as your gender or orientation - nothing you've even done! - AND that group you're a part of, LGBTQ, has historically been oppressed, marginalized, ostracized and demonized... that is an incredible burden. That rejection, or even quiet disapproval, that causes psychic harm.
Are you familiar with research on this?
So why would you not condemn Glenn and Marshal for their hateful attacks? Why would you not state clearly that you are supportive of LGBTQ people and opposed to conservatives like them?
Wow, speaking truth to the LEFT (i.e. Trabue's ilk) is "hateful attacks."
By the way, there is NO evidence that "sexual orientation" other than heterosexuality is inate. No one is born with homosexual desires, and even they there was some brain malfunction the gave them such desires, NO ONE HAS TO HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS--IT'S A CHOICE!!!
"That is, I suspect, because you have blinded yourself and isolated yourself from the concerns of LGBTQ folk."
Interesting way to respond to my observation about Dan's lack of vehement response to actual oppression. Excellent job of diverting.
"You know this well-known Truth to be valid, right?"
I'm aware of the saying, I'm not sure it's 100% True in all circumstances. I'm certainly confident that I'm not responsible for the actions of others.
"So why would you not condemn Glenn and Marshal for their hateful attacks? Why would you not state clearly that you are supportive of LGBTQ people and opposed to conservatives like them?"
Because I choose to allow people to say all sorts of things here without always attacking them.
"Which side will you be on?"
Hopefully YHWH's side.
I'll simply note that your story about the girl who was harming herself is an interesting choice.
The reality is that there are all sorts of things that are going on with people who are LGBTQXYZPDQ in terms of mental health. The problem is that you've chosen to believe that correlation is causation, and to dismiss the possibility that there might be other factors in play.
"See, when you say things like that, it is seen as dismissive of the actual oppression, now and historically, of LGBTQ people. Are you saying that you DON'T acknowledge the actual oppression and marginalization of LGBTQ people?"
No, I'm saying that on the continuum of "oppression" that is occurring throughout the world that not being invited to a family gathering is more of a first world problem and there are more pressing things to invest our time in. But you do you.
"I think part of the problem that many people coming from privileged majority safety is that they don't understand the depth of harm that comes from being marginalized, have marginalization thrust upon them."
1. I don't really care what you think.
2. The fact that we are privileged to live in a country where we have to dig this deep to find "oppression", says a lot.
3. Yes, because being a Christian in certain parts of Africa and being "marginalized" with a machete isn't worth getting worked up about.
4. Being a Uiger in Communist China, and being marginalized into slave labor is nothing like not being invited to a family dinner.
5. Being the wrong caste is noting compared to someone's parent's not approving of their lifestyle.
"If we consider a young man whose parents disowned because he chose to be a mechanic and they really wanted him to be a doctor or lawyer. That would hurt the man, of course, but it would be a weird quirk of the parents. It's not like society at large considers mechanics to be evil. It's not like mechanics have been historically oppressed."
Yet strangely enough, we often see that sort of thing result in motivation, drive, and a desire to succeed. Yet with LGBTQXYZPDQ folx, it seems like it's more about being a victim than about overcoming obstacles.
"But if your family rejects you because of something as innate as your gender or orientation - nothing you've even done! - AND that group you're a part of, LGBTQ, has historically been oppressed, marginalized, ostracized and demonized... that is an incredible burden. That rejection, or even quiet disapproval, that causes psychic harm."
I guess it all depends on how one chooses to react to what others do. One can wallow in the rejection, moan about being a victim, and be miserable, or one can understand that they have no control over anyone but themselves, and move on. It's not like society isn't exponentially more accepting of people than it was 50 years ago.
Maybe it's because of the industry I'm in, but I see too many people who have chosen not to be destroyed by what others think of them and become successful, accepted, and fulfilled.
Are you familiar with research on this?
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