https://x.com/blendrnews/status/2021600576732037280?s=51&t=cLq01Oy84YkmYPZ-URIMYw
"Here's why debating leftists feels like banging your head against a wall. Most people debate from reality outward. Leftists debate from utopia inward. The model: Imagine a utopian world → Identify gaps → Declare those gaps oppression → Demand society be remade."
Based on my experience, this sounds like a reasonably accurate conclusion.
13 comments:
That's certainly true for me, assuming that by Utopia, we can mean the realm of God, not More's U-topia (ie, literally No place). I begin with the realm of God as the standard - God's realm here and now in the real world - and proceed from there.
What's amazing to me is how many sel-professed Christians DON'T do this.
If, on the other hand, your source is speaking more literally of No place, well, no, that isn't where Christians and progressives in my circles are talking about. We are too busy living in the real world difficulties of poverty and oppression to deal with fantasies.
But, the model expressed in this way:
Imagine a better, more just and loving world →
Identify gaps →
Declare oppression and injustice as unacceptable →
Work to see society be remade
THAT is the Christian, justice, beloved community process we embrace.
I do so love how you simply try to impose your hunches on others.
But great job of missing the point.
Just for grins, let's play your little game. By all means, describe in detail exactly what your "realm of God" version of Utopia is. Explain how you plan to impose your hunches about Utopia on those who don't accept your christian beliefs?
What makes "the realm of God" the "standard", what is this "standard" and how is it measured? Is this "standard" universal and objective? Does it apply equally in all places and at all times?
I appreciate your honesty in acknowledging that you start with a "standard" which you can't/won't define based on your hunches about what you read in Scripture. This explains so much.
Yes, that is your hunch. I’m not sure that I want to remake world society based on your hunch.
This raises the obvious question regarding the significant chunk of the ASPL tribe that doesn’t buy your hunches about some otherworldly realm that imposes a standard on them based on things that they reject?
Glad to answer questions.
By all means, describe in detail exactly what your "realm of God" version of Utopia is.
The realm of God, the Beloved Community... these are terms referencing people and places dedicated to the defense and promotion of human rights. The Golden Rule, if you will. A place where the poor and marginalized are welcomed and allied with, as when the poor and marginalized are defended and supported, those places are better places for all. A place and people who begin with the common sense ideal of Do No Harm and builds from there.
I can add more, but there's a starting point.
Explain how you plan to impose your hunches about Utopia on those who don't accept your christian beliefs?
That's the great thing about the teachings of Jesus: they're common sense and fairly universal in nature. One doesn't have to affirm the Christian religion to agree that women and children shouldn't be sexually preyed upon, that the poor ought to be treated as fully human, deserving of rights and should not be penalized for being poor. That women shouldn't be stoned to death for the "crime" of an alleged adultery, etc.
So, it's not about imposing a particular religious tradition and is, instead, about finding common sense agreements in favor of human rights and opposition to oppression.
What makes "the realm of God" the "standard", what is this "standard" and how is it measured?
See above.
Is this "standard" universal and objective?
It's fairly universal (with humans, there are always outliers... narcissists and sociopaths and religious zealots, for instance. )
No one has an objectively provable set of moral theories so that standard is irrelevant except to the nihilistic.
Does it apply equally in all places and at all times?
Yes.
These are huge questions with fairly obvious answers, but there is a brief summary.
I made this suggestion...
imagine a better, more just and loving world →
Identify gaps →
Declare oppression and injustice as unacceptable →
Work to see society be remade
Craig responded...
Yes, that is your hunch. I’m not sure that I want to remake world society based on your hunch.
Yes, it IS my hunch, but not mine alone, nor did it originate with me. Vast swaths of humanity would easily and gladly agree.
1. You DO agree that this line of thinking is not some irrational or tiny outlier view, don't you?
2. Are you saying that you could NOT agree with this very basic, uncontroversial notion?
Come on. This should be an easy thing to agree to and find common ground on.
Craig...
This raises the obvious question regarding the significant chunk of the ASPL tribe that doesn’t buy your hunches about some otherworldly realm that imposes a standard on them based on things that they reject?
Who says they reject the notion of a beloved community? Of a just world where the concerns of the poor and marginalized are made central?
And I've made no otherworldly claim, just promoted a better THIS worldly arrangement.
You may want to remind yourself that there are huge numbers of the non-religious world who love the actual teachings of Jesus. It's not his teachings they reject, it's the religious teachings of some human traditions.
So, you state clearly that your arbitrary "standard" applies equally in all times and places, which contradicts your answer as to it's universality.
Essentially you have a wish that all people, everywhere, will adopt your hunches about a "realm of God", stripped of an actual God, but merely because you claim some nearly universal adherence to your hunches.
Cute. Good luck with that. Especially in China, Iran, Sudan, North Korea, Afghanistan and Pakistan for starters. That whole "take up your cross and follow me", "I'm The Way, The Truth, and The Light and no one comes to the Father but through Me" are pretty universal. Gotcha.
If, as you claim, "vast swaths of humanity would agree" with your fanciful hunches, explain why they haven't chosen to live out your panacea? Why haven't they adopted your hunches? Why do "vast swaths of humanity" kill or imprison people who claim to follow the Jesus you claim to represent.
1. Worldwide, it is absolutely an outlier. Billions of Chinese, billions of Muslims, millions of atheists, animists, and pagans would seem to disagree.
2. I do not agree with your hunch.
I think that the difference between us, which makes common ground difficult, is that I do acknowledge The Kingdom of YHWH as reality. A place that currently exists imperfectly on earth and perfectly in the presence of YHWH A state of existence that will at some point result in a redeemed earth with YHWH living among His people. As Joni Eareckson Tada wrote. "Heaven, Our Real Home". In the context of the video, I'm arguing out from (what I and millions of others believe to be) reality.
The problem with your utopia is that not even the entire ASPL buys your hunches or wants what you want. We know what Islam's version of Utopia is, and it's nothing like yours.
Craig...
"your arbitrary standard..."
Again, I'd ask you to just calmly breathe and think through what you're disagreeing with.
I noted a human rights Way, one rooted in love and the very reasonable and nearly universal Golden rule. Are you going to tell me that you imagine that THE Golden rule - cited in multiple ways in both the old and new testament and specifically by Jesus and in every major world religion and nearly every philosophy - are you suggesting that, contrary to ALL that, that you're one of the outliers who DON'T accept the Golden rule... that you consider it "arbitrary..."??
Surely, you jest.
I’m disagreeing with your personal, subjective hunch. I’m sorry that’s confusing for you.
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