This new leftist concept of responsibility is strange and a bit self serving.
Dozens of people killed or injured in Chicago and the response is that the people of Indiana are responsible.
People who advocate treating women with respect and honor are somehow equated with rapists.
People who have violated US immigration law, and commit murder in the US aren’t representative of the broader population of people who have chosen to violate immigration laws, but the 97% of gun owners who have never committed a crime with a gun are somehow responsible for the 3% who do.
My antecedents were mostly relative latecomers to the US, except the significant part of my antecedents who were Cherokee, yet somehow I’m branded as a racist and bear some degree of responsibility for slavery. Although the native Americans were societies that practiced slavery.
I, and others, didn’t support or vote for Trump yet are somehow responsible for him winning the election.
Chicago has a significant problem with violence, we’ve been told that cites like Minneapolis, Baltimore, St Louis, etc have a problem with systemic racism, yet the political party that has run the system in those cities for decades somehow is absolved of responsibility for what they’ve overseen.
I have no problem being responsible for my actions, I even accept that I bear some degree of responsibility for my families actions, also for those I vote for (unlike those on the left). But this concept that people are responsible for things they’ve had no part in, or that they haven’t done is more than a little strange.
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I have no doubt that you don't "get" it, why it seems strange to you that we're holding conservatives, en masse, responsible for the actions of other conservatives. Or why we hold men, en masse, responsible to some degree for the actions of abusers. Let me ask you two questions that, answered correctly, might help you understand.
1. Do you think that the "normal Germans" in Nazi Germany who didn't necessarily like or approve of the actions of the Nazis... but who did nothing of any significance to stand against those Nazis (working in the resistance, for instance, hiding and aiding Jews and oppressed minorities, for instance) are rightly held accountable, to some degree, for failure to act sufficiently against the Nazis?
2. Do you think that the "normal Southerners" and US citizens who didn't necessarily approve of slavery, but who did not actively fight against it (in the underground railroad, for instance, pushing for changes in the law, for instance, etc) are rightly held responsible to some degree for their failure to act sufficiently against slavery?
The correct answer to these questions is Yes. What is your answer?
If you agree that Yes, they should have acted more strenuously against the Nazis and slavery, then perhaps you can begin to register that conservatives who mildly disagree with Trump, but really do nothing to fight against his oppression of immigrants, his daily lies or generally fight against the conservatives who DID put him in power are being held accountable.
This new leftist concept of responsibility is strange and a bit self serving.
"I am my brother's keeper" is biblical, so, yeah, Leftist sounds right. But self-serving? Expecting people to be responsible for the crowds they frequent? That sounds selfless, not self-serving. But again, all of this is biblical, in addition to being rational and just basic decency.
Perhaps that's why you're not getting it?
“I am my brothers keeper” doesn’t actually appear in the Bible, nor is the principle require an absolute responsibility for any and all actions anywhere.
But more to the point. If the principal you espouse above isn’t applied evenly and equally to all sides then it is indeed self serving.
I’ll leave it there until you answer the question asked.
Sorry, but speaking of Biblical principles it seems that the whole “Sons aren’t culpable for the sins of their fathers” thing would be relevant.
Until I answer the questions asked?
I am literally the only one to ask questions in this post. There are six question marks and they're all in my comments.
SO, by all means, answer the questions asked:
1. WERE ordinary Germans (who vaguely disagreed with, but did nothing to stop the Nazis) to some degree culpable for the actions of Nazis?
2. WERE ordinary citizens (who vaguely disagreed with, but did nothing to stop slavery) in slavery times to some degree culpable for the actions of those who supported slavery?
IF you can answer those questions correctly (and there is only one morally and rationally correct answer), then perhaps you can see why you're being held culpable, to some degree. Maybe to a greater degree, in your case, because YOU say you recognize how awful Trump is, and yet, you do nothing but vaguely say "meh, he's not a great candidate..."!
To school you a bit: The principle that I am/We are our brothers keepers that is literally found in the Bible (the principle is, whether or not the exact words are... I don't know that anyone seriously disagrees with that - when Cain asked, "Am I my brothers keeper?" The implicit answer was, Yes, of course.) is the teaching that we are responsible for one another, to at least some degree. We are responsible for the bad actions taken by some... responsible to help them out of their wrong doing, for their sake... AND we are responsible for the bad actions taken by some... responsible to help those being harmed by the bad actors. Very biblical, very golden rule, very rational.
Do you actually disagree?
And the principle of "the children aren't culpable for the sins of the fathers..." is teaching that we ought not penalize children or others who had no control of the situation for what their ancestors did. However, the son who drives his father to the KKK rally, who is aware of the Nazi tendencies of his father or brother BUT who doesn't take part in it... BUT who also doesn't try seriously to stop or deter those actions... that son/brother IS culpable, rationally, biblically and morally speaking.
Do you actually disagree?
Yes, I ask you one question, and I’d appreciate it if you would answer it before I move on. It seems like a reasonable request, but if it’s not, I guess I’ll deal with it.
Since I’ve already answered the questions you’ve asked, I’m not sure why you haven’t gone to the trouble to repeat them. And if you don’t want to answer one simple request for information, then please just say so.
I feel compelled that your “Biblical” argument is that we have a responsibility “to help those being harmed by the bad actors”, is something that I agree with. But that’s a far cry from assigning responsibility for the situation that caused people to be in the position to need help.
To clarify further. Would I suggest that an average German citizen in 1930 should have been able to foresee with a high degree of precision (keep in mind the fact that we’re looking with hindsight, the economic and political conditions in Germany at the time, the very real threat the communists posed, and the limits on dissemination of information) what was going to happen a decade into the future? On the face of it, it seems absurd to even think so. Would things have been better had the Bolshevik revolution spread to Germany?
So, while I wouldn’t say that the average German is absolved of responsibility for Hitler’s reign, I certainly wouldn’t say they are as responsible as Himmler, Goebbles, Goering, and those more directly involved.
No one is saying that they are AS responsible as those directly involved. Nor would those who were in Germany maybe 10 years before who did not act right away as responsible as those when the pogroms began and the serious atrocities began.
At some point, the point is, ordinary German citizens held a DEGREE of responsibility for not speaking up, or not helping out the oppressed, for not breaking laws and working against the Nazis.
Same with citizens in the US during the slavery years. Maybe those in 1500 might not be held as liable as those in 1700 and those in 1700 not as liable as those in 1850, but at some point society progressed (thank you, progressive-ness!) and people recognized and should have recognized the great evil of slavery.
At that point, ordinary people should have been involved advocating for changes in laws, breaking laws if necessary to help the oppressed.
What people like me are saying is that conservatism and the GOP ARE at that point. Many conservatives DO recognize that lines been crossed and are actually speaking out against it.
Others, like you, appear to recognize that lines has been crossed and you barely speak out, saying "I can't go for him..." But not really taking a strong stand.
We're saying that the time has come to take a strong stand. To take action. To condemn those conservatives who support this awful, awful Administration. To provide Sanctuary to oppressed refugees, for instance, if necessary.
On the face of it, we see now and you should be able to see now that 10 years into the future, if we have an Administration that continues to attack the Free Press, who continues to make things up and undermine basic facts and truths, who calls liberals and Democratic Neighbors The Enemy of the State, that it is heading in an awful, awful direction. I'm not saying they are Nazis, but it is not heading in a healthy or good direction. It is dangerous.
The time to act is now.
I'm wondering what you're expected to do, Craig. You didn't vote for Trump. You aren't a Trump supporter. But because some people support him that are in some way connected to you (Christian, conservative, whatever), you're supposed to do something. You know, don't be a German in Nazi Germany and do nothing. Okay, fine. What? What should you do? What do they want of you? What should they have done? Are we talking assassination, revolution, armed conflict, what? Because apparently if you (they?) don't do it, you're culpable.
I often hear people complain -- "The 1%!!", "The president!", "Those lousy Christians!", "Those crummy homosexuals!", etc. -- but rarely get a sense of what they want done about it.
https://www.ushmm.org/learn/introduction-to-the-holocaust/ethical-leaders/background/causes-and-motivations
Dan,
I presume that you do not plan to answer the one question I asked you much earlier in the thread. I guess it doesn’t matter much, but it would help as I continue to respond.
I must thank you for agreeing with (really restating) my initial answers to your questions. I appreciate that.
Stan,
I think I’m expected to denounce Trump with the crude, vile, vitriol, as those who hate him. I also think I’m supposed to denounce in similar crude, vile, vitriolic terms anyone who might have anything less that negative to say about Trump. Beyond that should I be plotting assisination? A coup-de-etat? Violent revolution? By a black mask and join ANTIFA? Donate to his opponents? I just don’t know.
Nor do I really care, because nothing will stop certain people from insisting that I’m a racist, Trump supporting, patriarchal, misogynistic, rape advocate, so why try?
Dan,
I’ve left your other comment in moderation until I can read what you’ve offered. I see no reason to blindly place links I haven’t read on my blog.
So don’t worry, it’s stull there.
To answer Stan's question, I rarely see conservatives speaking out strongly to other Trump supporting conservatives saying, No! this ought not be!
Not merely, "well, I can't in good faith vote for him..." Or "I see your point but I just don't think he's a good candidate..."
Get past that namby-pamby wimpy little vague milquetoast half-protests.
Start saying, "No conservatives! This ought not be. We are damaging our reputation. We are causing harm to people. These lies about fake news are dangerous. The Press is NOT the enemy of the people. Immigrants are NOT the enemy of the people. When one immigrant happens to kill an American that is NOT a sign of a failed immigration policy. Is a problem with that one person!"
Speak out to your people. Y'all aren't doing that and that's a basic starting point. The Marshalls and Neil's of the world are not going to listen to liberals like me. But maybe... maybe if conservative people who disagree with Trump actually speak out and condemn them for their support saying, This is wrong, clearly wrong!
Say that the stuff that Trump lies about and dvocates are wrong, clearly wrong... Maybe then conservatives will start listening to their own people. Now a few good conservatives have done that... Russell Moore with a Southern Baptist for instance. But then he was attacked and not enough conservatives defended Russell Moore. The conservatives who disagree with Trump need to organize and overthrow the pro trumper's. And no of course not with guns or violence. But with rhetoric and dialogue and activism. Beginning with speaking out repeatedly clearly condemning Trump as an unfit president.
The problem is I just don't think you all believe it. To you it sure sounds like, meh... Trump is not so good... But you don't see him as the threat that we do.
Another thing that you could be doing to show that you are on the right side of history, is to begin to denounce the racism within your party.
I'm not suggesting that most conservatives or most Republicans are racist, Nazis or skinheads. But clearly there is a problem with in conservative circles with Nazis and KKK and racist feel like they fit within that party and especially within the party of trump.
This should be a soul-killing heart ache of an embarrassment for you all. You all should be actively actively denouncing even the slightest hint of racism because it IS a problem in your circles.
The problem once again is I just don't think y'all think it's all that bad. And that's the problem.
As to the link I provided Craig, unless I am misremembering, it was from the Holocaust Museum. Not sure what you would find objectionable from them...
Stan, I know you know this, but my last response was sarcastic.
Also, you’d think that the response to those of us who didn’t support Trump would be something like, “That’s great that you found good, solid, principled reasons not to support Trump “. Instead of, “You clearly aren’t doing enough and therefore your just as guilty as everyone who did support him.”.
Dan,
If you could just clearly state that you aren’t going to answer the one non-rhetorical question I asked I would appreciate it.
I guess my sarcastic answer was closer to the truth than I thought. I do find it interesting that Dan and Feo feel confident in making judgments about what we do based solely on the relatively tiny bit of our lives that show up on our blogs. The fact that there is such a desire to broad brush and judge by “affiliation” and prejudice is quite amazing.
Of course the fact that my point is being made right here and now is just a bonus.
Dan,
Surely you don’t expect me to just blindly post any link you happen to copy/paste, do you?
That’s a rhetorical question. I’ll post it when I read it and if it’s on topic.
More ideas about what you should be doing has conservatives who say they are opposed to this Administration. Consider what George Will has done by way of an example of responsible conservatism.
1. He left the Republican party and changed to an independent. That's a significant point.
if Trump or someone like him had been the Democrat candidate to receive nomination in a presidential race, I would certainly step away from that party.
2. He actively encouraged conservatives to vote against Trump. And this coming election, he has said conservatives should vote against the Republican candidates. He saying publicly and loudly and often that conservatives need to own the responsibility in this and do their part to actively make the GOP lose races, to make it abundantly clear that the trunk wing of the party is being repudiated and rejected by conservatism.
3. Repudiate every hint of racism every single time it raises its head in the party or out of this Administration. Any slight hint that Latinos are rapists and murderers... Any hint that an immigrant being involved in a crime is a sign of an immigration crisis because Mexicans are criminals and M13 members... Any hint of Nazis and KKK and racist groups representing conservatism.
Y'all have a credibility problem on racial issues. Stop being defensive about it, recognized it, own it, and fix it.
Stop saying things like "but I have black friends, I'm not racist!" and just own that y'all have a problem. And reject it at every turn strongly clearly unequivocally.
Dan,
I apologize, somehow my first comment answering your two questions and asking you a question did not post, and I didn’t see that fact. I’ll try to reconstitute that at some point. Totally my fault, I just assumed it posted.
No worries. Thanks for looking.
1. Your assumption is that you know my party affiliation and that I haven’t changed it.
2. I’ve been actively encouraging people not to support Trump since 2016.
3. If I ever heard someone say that “all Hispanics” or “all immigrants” are anything I would repudiate it. However pointing out the reality that virtually all MS13 members are Hispanic and that a significant number of them have violated US immigration laws in addition to other laws in the US and elsewhere, is simply pointing out reality.
But, thank you for continuing to demonstrate so well the point of my post, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it.
Y’all have a problem with defaulting to group identity politics. Y’all have a problem if being too lazy to even try to determine if I (or any other individual) am actually racist, your just content to lump me in with people you perceive to be racist.
Again, thanks.
FYI, pogroms happened in Russia, not Germany.
While there is a lot of speculation about what “I didn’t do”, I’d like to focus on what I did do.
When faced with a choice between “the lesser of two evils”, I chose not to vote for evil at all. In the choice between two badly flawed, corrupt, liars, I chose neither.
But that’s just not good enough apparently.
FYI, pogroms happened in Russia, not Germany
Sigh. You'd think that being caught in a very silly mistake once, you'd be a bit more humble in trying to presume to correct someone.
Kristallnacht (German pronunciation: [kʁɪsˈtalnaχt]; lit. "Crystal Night") or Reichskristallnacht (German: [ˌʁaɪçs.kʁɪsˈtalnaχt] (About this sound listen)), also referred to as the Night of Broken Glass, Reichspogromnacht [ˌʁaɪçs.poˈɡʁoːmnaχt] or simply
Pogromnacht... was a pogrom against Jews throughout Nazi Germany...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht
You know, Craig, I have been inclined to just give up in talking with you and this Strike Two (at least) in just these few comments just confirms that your arrogance and distaste for liberals is just making you too irrational and emotionally-vapid to make it worth the effort.
And no, what you all have collectively done is not good enough. We still have had to deal with a year and a half of a dangerous president undermining basic human liberties and the progress we've made. These Trumpians are not conservatives, they're regressives.
You know, I know it’s hard for you to admit mistakes, but seriously, talk about disproportionate.
Of course I’m well aware of Kristallnacht, and I am also aware of pogroms. You are pedantic attempt to justify your mistake is amusing.
And once again, thank you from the bottom of my heart. Your last paragraph could not be a better illustration of what this post is about. Honestly, it’s just priceless.
It’s amusing that you get so bent out of shape about being corrected on a factual error, well you have absolutely no problems making pronouncements about me, what I’ve done, and what I’ve not done, based on your perceptions and prejudices about other people do you presume share my political ideology. I’ve been pretty patient throughout this thread, in not mentioning the fact that you haven’t addressed one specific example that I gave in the original post. Instead you had to import two examples of your own which you then under mind. Once again you have my deepest And most sincere thanks for your comments on this thread.
I guess if we are being consistent, then art and I and Stan and everyone else who did or didn’t vote for tromp but identifies as a conservative are also responsible for the significant drop in black unemployment, for over 4% GDP growth, And for all of the other positive things that have happened Since Trump took office. But, that would only be the case if you were interested in being consistent.
While Dan’s two questions weren’t necessarily on topic, they were instructive and might help reinforce the point of the post.
The common underpinning of both of Dan’s examples is a denial of the humanity of a group or groups of people, which allows the favored group to exercise unlimited authority over those subhumans. To the point where the enslavement or death of the subhumans is portrayed as a good, positive, or natural state for them.
This philosophy is an eerie parallel to something a little closer to our times. What modern movement involves stripping the humanity from a group judged to be of lesser value, and killing or exploiting that group for profit?
Obviously we’re talking about the one non negotiable issue for liberals in good standing, abortion.
Of course, it also ties in because the two people involved in engaging in the act necessary to precipitate the “need” for abortion, are usually absolved from any responsibility for the outcome.
“Who are you to tell me what I can do with my property/body”
My property/body rights supersede the rights of the slave/fetus”
“Slavery/abortion has been around forever, we might as well have a safe legal system to regulate it.”
“Slaves/fetuses aren’t really people, they aren’t like us. They’re physically different. Therefore we’re human/persons and they’re not.”
“If slavery/abortion ends most of these slaves/babies will end up unwanted/out on the street/unemployed/poor/miserable.”
“Slavery/abortion was vindicated by SCOTUS, it’s settled law and there’s no point in arguing about it.”
“Slavery/abortion is really in the best interest of the slave/child it keeps them safe from the cold cruel world outside the plantation/womb.”
“Slavery and abortion aren’t specifically condemned by the Bible, therefore God must approve.”
It's important to remember that a good, moral and decent conservative can easily be identified by how closely he agrees with Dan.
Clearly Dan, who has referred to conservatives in all sorts of crude, vile, and vitriolic terms is the most likely person to define what conservatives should do. Especially since he won’t hold himself to the standards he demands of others.
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