https://x.com/blendrnews/status/2021600576732037280?s=51&t=cLq01Oy84YkmYPZ-URIMYw
"Here's why debating leftists feels like banging your head against a wall. Most people debate from reality outward. Leftists debate from utopia inward. The model: Imagine a utopian world → Identify gaps → Declare those gaps oppression → Demand society be remade."
Based on my experience, this sounds like a reasonably accurate conclusion.
72 comments:
That's certainly true for me, assuming that by Utopia, we can mean the realm of God, not More's U-topia (ie, literally No place). I begin with the realm of God as the standard - God's realm here and now in the real world - and proceed from there.
What's amazing to me is how many sel-professed Christians DON'T do this.
If, on the other hand, your source is speaking more literally of No place, well, no, that isn't where Christians and progressives in my circles are talking about. We are too busy living in the real world difficulties of poverty and oppression to deal with fantasies.
But, the model expressed in this way:
Imagine a better, more just and loving world →
Identify gaps →
Declare oppression and injustice as unacceptable →
Work to see society be remade
THAT is the Christian, justice, beloved community process we embrace.
I do so love how you simply try to impose your hunches on others.
But great job of missing the point.
Just for grins, let's play your little game. By all means, describe in detail exactly what your "realm of God" version of Utopia is. Explain how you plan to impose your hunches about Utopia on those who don't accept your christian beliefs?
What makes "the realm of God" the "standard", what is this "standard" and how is it measured? Is this "standard" universal and objective? Does it apply equally in all places and at all times?
I appreciate your honesty in acknowledging that you start with a "standard" which you can't/won't define based on your hunches about what you read in Scripture. This explains so much.
Yes, that is your hunch. I’m not sure that I want to remake world society based on your hunch.
This raises the obvious question regarding the significant chunk of the ASPL tribe that doesn’t buy your hunches about some otherworldly realm that imposes a standard on them based on things that they reject?
Glad to answer questions.
By all means, describe in detail exactly what your "realm of God" version of Utopia is.
The realm of God, the Beloved Community... these are terms referencing people and places dedicated to the defense and promotion of human rights. The Golden Rule, if you will. A place where the poor and marginalized are welcomed and allied with, as when the poor and marginalized are defended and supported, those places are better places for all. A place and people who begin with the common sense ideal of Do No Harm and builds from there.
I can add more, but there's a starting point.
Explain how you plan to impose your hunches about Utopia on those who don't accept your christian beliefs?
That's the great thing about the teachings of Jesus: they're common sense and fairly universal in nature. One doesn't have to affirm the Christian religion to agree that women and children shouldn't be sexually preyed upon, that the poor ought to be treated as fully human, deserving of rights and should not be penalized for being poor. That women shouldn't be stoned to death for the "crime" of an alleged adultery, etc.
So, it's not about imposing a particular religious tradition and is, instead, about finding common sense agreements in favor of human rights and opposition to oppression.
What makes "the realm of God" the "standard", what is this "standard" and how is it measured?
See above.
Is this "standard" universal and objective?
It's fairly universal (with humans, there are always outliers... narcissists and sociopaths and religious zealots, for instance. )
No one has an objectively provable set of moral theories so that standard is irrelevant except to the nihilistic.
Does it apply equally in all places and at all times?
Yes.
These are huge questions with fairly obvious answers, but there is a brief summary.
I made this suggestion...
imagine a better, more just and loving world →
Identify gaps →
Declare oppression and injustice as unacceptable →
Work to see society be remade
Craig responded...
Yes, that is your hunch. I’m not sure that I want to remake world society based on your hunch.
Yes, it IS my hunch, but not mine alone, nor did it originate with me. Vast swaths of humanity would easily and gladly agree.
1. You DO agree that this line of thinking is not some irrational or tiny outlier view, don't you?
2. Are you saying that you could NOT agree with this very basic, uncontroversial notion?
Come on. This should be an easy thing to agree to and find common ground on.
Craig...
This raises the obvious question regarding the significant chunk of the ASPL tribe that doesn’t buy your hunches about some otherworldly realm that imposes a standard on them based on things that they reject?
Who says they reject the notion of a beloved community? Of a just world where the concerns of the poor and marginalized are made central?
And I've made no otherworldly claim, just promoted a better THIS worldly arrangement.
You may want to remind yourself that there are huge numbers of the non-religious world who love the actual teachings of Jesus. It's not his teachings they reject, it's the religious teachings of some human traditions.
So, you state clearly that your arbitrary "standard" applies equally in all times and places, which contradicts your answer as to it's universality.
Essentially you have a wish that all people, everywhere, will adopt your hunches about a "realm of God", stripped of an actual God, but merely because you claim some nearly universal adherence to your hunches.
Cute. Good luck with that. Especially in China, Iran, Sudan, North Korea, Afghanistan and Pakistan for starters. That whole "take up your cross and follow me", "I'm The Way, The Truth, and The Light and no one comes to the Father but through Me" are pretty universal. Gotcha.
If, as you claim, "vast swaths of humanity would agree" with your fanciful hunches, explain why they haven't chosen to live out your panacea? Why haven't they adopted your hunches? Why do "vast swaths of humanity" kill or imprison people who claim to follow the Jesus you claim to represent.
1. Worldwide, it is absolutely an outlier. Billions of Chinese, billions of Muslims, millions of atheists, animists, and pagans would seem to disagree.
2. I do not agree with your hunch.
I think that the difference between us, which makes common ground difficult, is that I do acknowledge The Kingdom of YHWH as reality. A place that currently exists imperfectly on earth and perfectly in the presence of YHWH A state of existence that will at some point result in a redeemed earth with YHWH living among His people. As Joni Eareckson Tada wrote. "Heaven, Our Real Home". In the context of the video, I'm arguing out from (what I and millions of others believe to be) reality.
The problem with your utopia is that not even the entire ASPL buys your hunches or wants what you want. We know what Islam's version of Utopia is, and it's nothing like yours.
Craig...
"your arbitrary standard..."
Again, I'd ask you to just calmly breathe and think through what you're disagreeing with.
I noted a human rights Way, one rooted in love and the very reasonable and nearly universal Golden rule. Are you going to tell me that you imagine that THE Golden rule - cited in multiple ways in both the old and new testament and specifically by Jesus and in every major world religion and nearly every philosophy - are you suggesting that, contrary to ALL that, that you're one of the outliers who DON'T accept the Golden rule... that you consider it "arbitrary..."??
Surely, you jest.
I’m disagreeing with your personal, subjective hunch. I’m sorry that’s confusing for you.
Craig...
Billions of Chinese, billions of Muslims, millions of atheists, animists, and pagans would seem to disagree.
Ridiculous. Don't be a bigoted nincompoop.
Craig...
Worldwide, it is absolutely an outlier. Billions of Chinese, billions of Muslims, millions of atheists, animists, and pagans would seem to disagree.
If you truly think this, then you need to become more familiar with world religions and philosophies. Or, for that matter, CS Lewis, who correctly identifies a commonality of moral reasoning to be one of the evidences of a good God.
The Muslims, for instance...
From Islam...
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful
The ethics of reciprocity, known as the “golden rule,” is any moral dictum that encourages people to treat others the way they would like to be treated. Although the term was originally coined by Anglican ministers such as George Boraston, the principle can be found in the sacred texts of the world’s great religions, as well as the writings of secular philosophers. Due to its ubiquity in many contexts, it has become an important focal point for interfaith dialogue and the development of international human rights norms.
The rule often appears as a summarizing principle of good conduct, the supreme moral principle of right action between human beings. Though not always understood literally, as it is often qualified by competing moral imperatives, it generally functions as an intuitive method of moral reasoning.
Or other world religions...
https://interfaithmonmouthcenter.org/the-golden-rule/
Or, an atheist, making the rather obvious case for the Way of Golden rule living (and in a much more compelling manner than many conservatives!)
I’ve found that morality can be quite easily boiled down to one simple piece of guidance, which is commonly referred to as “the golden rule.”
While the phrase “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” can be found in some form in the Bible, I’m confident that we as a species could have figured this one out on our own. It’s really quite simple. Why, as an atheist, don’t I run around murdering people? Because I have no desire to do so, and even if I did, I am equipped with empathy and can understand how that action would hurt someone else.
https://ffrf.org/fttoday/april-2015/articles-april-2015/an-atheist-view-of-the-golden-rule/
The animals may be the MOST Golden relish of them all (as it extends beyond the merely human!)
Animist Golden Rules (Principles)
Respect All Beings: Treat everything—living or inanimate—as a "person" with its own spirit and sovereignty.Practice Reciprocity: Take only what you need, and offer gratitude or gifts to maintain balance with nature.Ask Permission: Approach the natural world with etiquette, asking permission before harvesting or using resources.Be a Good Relative: Recognize humans are part of a wider community of life, not superiors.Do No Harm: Avoid unnecessarily violating the sovereignty of other-than-human persons.
...
Same for the pagans...
Wiccans/pagans...
https://sabbatsandsabbaths.com/2022/01/04/golden-rule-and-wiccan-rede/
You can't possibly be so uninformed not to know this, can you?
I couldn't get the link to fully open up, but the excerpt is solid in its premise.
Craig, belligerently said...
If, as you claim, "vast swaths of humanity would agree" with your fanciful hunches, explain why they haven't chosen to live out your panacea?
Probably for the same reason that Christians such as yourself don't live out YOUR particular human tradition. Humans are imperfect.
For instance, claiming to be a follower of Jesus but mocking his Golden rule as a "fanciful hunch..." is that REALLY what you think of the Golden rule as taught by Jesus your Lord?
If so, you've answered your own question!
"I begin with the realm of God as the standard"
Bullshit. You begin with your twisted perversion of God...a god of your own making with only the most superficial of resemblance to the God of Scripture.
"We are too busy living in the real world difficulties of poverty and oppression to deal with fantasies."
Says the pervert who voted for the most despotic president we've ever had and claimed that doddering fool is a better man than our current president who's working (and succeeding) at making America great again. Dan's choice is responsible for greater poverty and oppression Trump has been alleviating.
"Declare oppression and injustice as unacceptable"
Says the twisted pervert who voted for the president who's puppet masters increased both.
You seem to be conflating your personal, subjective hunches with what the majority of the ASPL embrace. Feel free to believe what you want, but don’t pretend like it’s True. But sure, believe that the anarchist, communist, atheist, nihilist wings of the ASPL are going to get on board with your hunches about living in the “realm of God”. Hey you could re brand it without God, but then it becomes about you.
"The realm of God, the Beloved Community... these are terms referencing people and places dedicated to the defense and promotion of human rights."
The actual God of the Bible doesn't abide the murder of infants like your pretend "realm of God, the Beloved Community" does.
"A place where the poor and marginalized are welcomed and allied with, as when the poor and marginalized are defended and supported, those places are better places for all."
A place where the poor is vastly increased in number due to marxist economic policies of the political party Dan supports. A place where the marginalized are those who adhere to the Will of the One True ACTUAL God of Scripture, who defend law enforcement and are accused of ignoring those on the periphery of our society. A place where those Dan regards as "the marginalized" are purveyors of immoral perversions negatively influencing our youth.
"That's the great thing about the teachings of Jesus: they're common sense and fairly universal in nature."
Such as Lev 18:22. It's a joke to see you pretend to care about the teachings of Christ when you simply limit your opinion of what His teachings are as they align with your perverse marxist drivel.
"One doesn't have to affirm the Christian religion to agree that women and children shouldn't be sexually preyed upon"
Unless they're muslim or illegal aliens trafficking in both. Then Dan's Beloved Community jumps up to defend them from their just rewards.
"that the poor ought to be treated as fully human, deserving of rights and should not be penalized for being poor."
The obvious slander being that those not of Dan's "Beloved Community"...i.e. conservatives, Trump supporters, actual Christians...treat the poor badly, deny them their rights and/or "penalize" them (somehow) for being poor. This doesn't jibe with the true teachings of Jesus.
"That women shouldn't be stoned to death for the "crime" of an alleged adultery, etc."
Unless they're Dan's muslims. Note, however, that Jesus did nothing to prohibit the stoning of adulterers in His time on earth.
"It's fairly universal (with humans, there are always outliers... narcissists and sociopaths and religious zealots, for instance."...
...and defenders of infanticide, like Dan.
"No one has an objectively provable set of moral theories so that standard is irrelevant except to the nihilistic."
I do. It's called God's Will as revealed to us in Scripture.
I’m disagreeing with your arbitrary, subjective, personal standard based on your hunch.
"Again, I'd ask you to just calmly breathe and think through what you're disagreeing with."
More arrogant condescension from the lover of perversion and infanticide.
Once again, I am asking THIS question...
Are you going to tell me that you imagine that THE Golden rule -
cited in multiple ways in both the old and new testament and specifically by Jesus and in every major world religion and nearly every philosophy -
are you suggesting that, contrary to ALL that, that you're one of the outliers who DON'T accept the Golden rule... that you consider it "arbitrary..."??
Your response is not an answer to THAT question.
I’m disagreeing with your personal, subjective hunch.
What is it with the maga world? Are you so arrogant that you get to decide whether or not to respectfully and directly answer reasonable questions put to you in a rational adult conversation? Are you so unearned as to not understand that you're literally not answering the actual question?
Did you attend the Pam Bondi School of Belligerent Journalism? Itself, another fake school spawned the Trump University scam?
Says the lemming who venerates the UN's attacks on Israel while ignoring the UN elevation and rewarding one of the most oppressive and unjust regimes on the planet.
Dan chooses to ignore the thousands of "women and children being sexually preyed upon" in Europe, the fact that the Euro "justice" system is refusing to adequately punish the predators, that Islamic religious leaders support the sexual predation, that we are actually seeing organized rings of pedophiles, and the trafficking of children across Biden's open border. It's easier to pretend that these things don't exist and that there isn't a religion and "justice" system facilitating them when he spouts his pollyannaish nonsense.
You'll note that Dan has morphed from "the realm of God" being his "standard" to something entirely different. He's taken "God" out of "the realm of God" and created some fantasy world where everyone simply accepts his milquetoast, watered down, fantasy.
Strangely enough, if "the poor" are Christians (or Duse or Yazidi, or Uighur, or Maronites) in Muslim or Communist countries Dan's concern isn't nearly as apparent.
Dan begins with his personal, subjective, hunches about "the realm of God" then he waters them down to attempt to make them palatable to those who would otherwise not buy in to his (or anyone else's) version of a "realm of God" as the "standard" for human flourishing.
Well, now Dan decides that he's able to speak for Billions of Chinese and Muslims, and millions of atheists, animists, and pagans. Arrogance and hubris on display.
Dan the venerated Quranic scholar has copy/pasted one snippet from some source and pretends as if it's authoritative.
I guess Dan thinks that young girls and women would like to be repeatedly be raped by old Muslim men while their Imams justify the rapes with the Quran. Or that young boys would like to be treated like sex toys because Muslim leaders allow the practice. Or that gays like to be thrown from rooftops, or thieves like to be mutilated, that women like to have their genitals mutilated or be treated like property.
Open your eyes. Look at actions in the real world.
Islam also teaches that their version of heaven is a teenage boys wet dream, endless perpetual virgins waiting to be defiled by men and endless wine. Yeah, women get treated worse in the afterlife than they do before they die.
Again, congratulations on finding some random atheist that kind of agrees with you. I'm sure he'd be all in on your "realm of God" standard.
I've provide the quotes before, so I won't bother again, but I'm not sure that the Materialist/Naturalist/Darwinian worldview ("Nature is red in tooth and claw") comports with your fantasies.
Of course there are plenty of atheists who acknowledge the utility of some artificial construct that they choose to impose on humans to attempt to explain why humans don't act like every other animal species. They just have no grounding other then utility to support it.
No, I'm merely pointing out that none of those groups is going to buy in to your "realm of God" shtick.
This tactic of adding some pejorative adjective between "Craig" and "said" is getting annoying. Coming from you (who allow belligerence and worse at your bog) who has a history of vitriol, condescension, hatred, slander, and false claims, it's cute when you play these little games.
So you magically expect billions of "imperfect" humans to magically accept your hunches about Utopia and stop their current behavior.
It's instructive when your arrogance and hubris kicks in. I was not "mocking" what either Jesus quote and expansion of the law from Deuteronomy, I was referring to your hunches about it. That you seem confused by the fact that you are not Jesus or Moses of YHWH seems delusional on your part.
Once again, I don't care that your arrogance and hubris demands that I treat every word spewed from your keyboard as some sacred writ.
My response does answer that question, you just don't understand that I don't conflate your hunches about something with the actual thing.
I did answer your question. I did answer it directly. It's not my problem that your arrogance and hubris can't differentiate your hunches from the real thing.
You so wonderfully demonstrating your commitment to live out the version of the "golden rule" (leaving aside the hilarity of your basing your universal standard on a rule that you got from scripture) is a failure at best and how you refuse to embrace grace has made my morning. It's always refreshing when you refuse to practice what you demand others accept as a "standard".
Then by all means, Craig, if you're "disagreeing' with my "personal, subjective hunch," then TELL ME what you imagine my "hunch" is and WHAT specifically you find in it to disagree with.
There's another question/request to go unanswered.
Craig...
You so wonderfully demonstrating your commitment to live out the version of the "golden rule" (leaving aside the hilarity of your basing your universal standard on a rule that you got from scripture
You read my words and fail to understand.
1. I do NOT base moral rules because "there's a line in the Bible. " I've made that point repeatedly over the decades we've been talking.
2. Rather, I think Jesus is simply pointing to universal rules and, even moreso, a Way of being and loving as we move through this world.
is a failure at best and how you refuse to embrace grace has made my morning. It's always refreshing when you refuse to practice what you demand others accept as a "standard".
By all means, point to where specifically I have failed and refused to embrace grace. I'm imperfect. It's possible. But vague, unsupported accusations are not part of the Way of Jesus.
At a guess, I'd say that, IF you answer this reasonable question, you'd say something like I've not been nice enough towards you. As if expecting you to actually answer the questions I've asked is too mean.
But you tell me.
I am disagreeing with your hunch regarding this "realm of God" "standard" you want to impose on others.
1. I disagreee with your hunch that leads you to use the vague, milquetoast, "realm of God" rather that the more Biblically accurate "Kingdom of YHWH".
2. I disagree with your hunches about the nature of this "realm of God" or "beloved community" or whatever terminology you use to make it palatable.
3. I disagree with your eiesgesis on this and any other subject.
4. I disagree with your selective, out of context, snipping of things offered as if they are objective proof.
5. I disagree with your hunch that you hunch about the Kingdom of YHWH and the reality of that Kingdom are perfectly aligned.
Again, not unanswered, like you. Just not answered in the way you demand. I'll note that I asked you several simple direct questions on a thread about a week ago, and not only are there zero answers, but there isn't any of your usual bullshit that you spew when you don't want to answer. But I expect the double standard.
"You read my words and fail to understand"
What an arrogant and graceless way to begin. I understand why you play these games, but they are still childish.
1. You've literally based your entire "standard" for your "Utopia" on one passage (The Golden Rule) and the notion of some sort of vague "realm of God" language that you also (sort of) got from scripture. Go ahead an tell yourself whatever you need to. If it helps you to think that you somehow came up with this "standard" outside of scripture, then delude yourself away. If, (as you seem to claim) YHWH "wrote" some level of moral understanding "on our hearts", then how does one arrive at this "universal standard" without YHWH?
2. What is the source of these "universal rules"? Are these "universal rules" not objective?
Look at your comment or comments right above the above quote for a start. Look back through my blog posts to the multiple posts cataloging your graceless vitriol. Look at the instances where you've lied about me. I understand they you see your graceless and vitriolic comments as somehow equal to Jesus' rebukes, but you are not Jesus.
1.
Just hypothetically, does your version of "grace" condone referring to someone as "X" when there is no evidence of your claim?
"What is it with the maga world? Are you so arrogant that you get to decide whether or not to respectfully and directly answer reasonable questions put to you in a rational adult conversation? Are you so unearned as to not understand that you're literally not answering the actual question?
Did you attend the Pam Bondi School of Belligerent Journalism? Itself, another fake school spawned the Trump University scam?"
If this is how you embrace grace and function in your "beloved community" inspired by the "realm of God", then I'll pass. Just because you disguised your gracelessness with question marks, doesn't absolve you of your actions.
Dan's abject ignorance of Islam, true Muslim teachings, is astounding. There is nothing peaceful about Islam. Grab a history book or two, Danny boy. And, yes, I know what I am talking about because I have read the Quran and studied Islam for at least 30 years!
You could say the same thing about his knowledge of Christian teachings as well.
His understanding of Islam comes from Google searching groups that feed into the ignorance of people like him.
I've posted who knows how many videos of Imams spewing the most vile teachings from the Quran, and Dan merely dismisses them as "outliers" with absolutely zero basis for his claims. Much like Christianity, Dan has imposed his own hunches on the Quran as if he is some sort of expert.
It seems germane to note that Dan did not quote the Quran for his claim about Islam, but quoted an apparently unnamed source that purports to speak for the entire religion of Islam. A quick search shows that there is really no direct analog in the Quran for the Golden Rule comparable to the two scriptural references.
Strangely enough, Dan seems unaware of unconcerned for the implications of Jesus quoting Deuteronomy as He reiterates the First Greatest Commandment (let alone that commandment is pretty much a synonym for rule).
In Truth it should probably be called The Golden Commandment if YHWH, to accurately reflect it's importance.
Dan also presumes that his excerpt isn't speaking only to muslim men and how they expect to be treated by other muslim men, more so than men in general. It's very much like Dan abusing "the least of these", when in its full context it speaks of Christ's disciples.
Dan also confuses/conflates "commonality" with "universality", which aren't the same things. And I wouldn't presume that Lewis actual polled the entirety of the world's population to come to his presumption.
The citing of the Golden Rule is often no more than the same abuse "Judge not" gets by those who reject so much of Scriptural teaching, like Dan does. They're both used to deflect righteous criticism of they're misbehavior and heresies.
Nor will they find salvation by their perversions of the Golden Rule.
I'll "mock" Dan's expression of the Golden Rule and other concepts he routinely perverts in service to his heretical perversions. Again, one needs more the most superficial of resemblances to make a claim of true Christian faith and actually be a Christian. Dan prefers posturing over true dedication.
On the Qu'ran and the Golden Rule, from the Qu'ran:
Islam’s teaching is superior to the Golden Rule. Islam teaches that Muslims must treat others well no matter how they treat the Muslims: “Verily, Allah enjoins justice, and the doing of good to others; and giving like kindred”. [3]
Unlike the Old Testament’s teaching of equal retribution, the Holy Qur’an urges Muslims to forgive:
And the recompense of an injury is an injury the like thereof; but whoso forgives and his act brings about reformation, his reward is with Allah. Surely, He loves not the wrongdoers. [4]
The Holy Qur’an teaches that Muslims must deal justly with everyone, even those who may hate them:
O ye who believe! be steadfast in the cause of Allah, bearing witness in equity; and let not a people’s enmity incite you to act otherwise than with justice. Be always just, that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah. Surely, Allah is aware of what you do. [5]
The Golden Rule teaches to do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. In the aforementioned verse, the Qur’an commands Muslims to always treat others with justice, even if they act with animosity and injustice towards you.
https://www.alislam.org/question/islam-reject-golden-rule-forbid-befriending-non-muslims/
So, THAT Muslim said that the Golden Rule in the Qu'ran is even a higher, more strict rule. The rest of the article is helpful for bigots who only know what they've learned that demonizes Islam and Muslims.
Or this source:
None of you has faith until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.
https://www.abuaminaelias.com/golden-rule-in-islam-love-humanity/
Or this one:
The golden rule is to treat others as you would like others to treat you.
The Quran and hadith teach an even better rule. I call it the 'Platinum Rule':
Treat others as you would like *God* to treat you.
Live by that, and your life will change.
https://quranreflect.com/posts/1709
I could go on. In short, the Quran and Islam teach a version of the Golden rule and, according to some, an even more demanding version. Although, I'd argue that the Christian (and others) golden rule is not a rule of reciprocity. It's saying WHATEVER others may do, do to THEM what you'd WANT them to do.
Did you truly not know this, you wise Islam "experts..."?
Now, let me explain, once again, what I mean when I say "the golden rule is generally universal," or "fairly universal..."
As I've said repeatedly, the evidence is that all major world religions and philosophies affirm something like the Golden Rule. EVERY ONE.
Now, WITHIN those human religions, there are subsets of humans who do NOT do a great job of living into that teaching and that Way. Remember the slave-owning Christians and Muslims and others of the past and of today. Remember the variety of evangelical hucksters naming themselves as Christians who have abused and raped women, girls and children and otherwise abused people. Remember the WAY too many Muslims who've done the same thing and are still doing the wrong. Remember the variety of Christians, Jews, Muslims and others who've demonized and abused our LGBTQ friends and family.
INDIVIDUAL humans have managed to fail to live up to an ideal that they generally affirm, in theory.
Thus, the reality that all religions and philosophies affirm the golden rule and all of them fail to live up to it, even while generally still affirming it.
As that great feminist hero, Mary Wollstonecroft said long ago: "No man chooses evil because it is evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks."
It's like that. Nonetheless, the point would be to appeal to that great ideal they CLAIM to believe.
Would that more conservative extremists were doing that today! Would that many extremist Muslims were doing that today!
It’s almost a justification for a righteousness based on what you do.
I’ll note that you didn’t cite the Quran, but someone else’s interpretation of the Quran.
But just for grins, show me one Muslim nation or enclave where this is being lived out.
What I do know is that where something occurs in the Quran is of vital importance and without that information this is just copy/pasted snippets.
What I also know is that the Hadiths are not the perfect words of Allah, merely human opinions on the Quran.
I’m not sure Islam has anything similar, but Scripture talks about knowing people by their “fruits”. Where exactly is Islam (as opposed to some random Muslims) producing “fruit” in line with your expert copy/paste analysis.
We all know that the Quran is full of passages that contradict these snippets, but I’m sure someone will have to spoon feed those to you and then you’ll still make up your excuses for why it means something else.
57 Muslim countries on earth, how many were conquered and the inhabitants killed or forced to convert?
How many of the 57 Muslim countries have seen a massive decrease in non Muslim minorities since Islam?
Words or deeds, which speaks louder?
Blah, blah, blah. I get it, you went too far with your “universal” nonsense, now you have to tap dance and redefine things because you can’t prove the reality of your claim.
But it’s just not in you to simply acknowledge your mistake and apologize for your overreach.
It’s just excuses.
Isn’t it strange though that most religions have something similar to the Golden Rule. It’s almost like some Creator coded that notion into human DNA or something, but something happened to humans that caused things to change.
But I appreciate you making my point. That you are arguing from an ideal that doesn’t actually exist in the reality of human experience (at least not on a medium/large scale) l, instead of from the reality we all live in.
Please explain in detail how Iraqs adoption of an age of consent of 9, joining multiple other nations under Sharia with ages of consent up to 15, fit with your “platinum rule”? How many 9 year olds (remember Mo married, and consummated the marriage, a 9 year old and lots of others want in on that action.
How many 9-15 year old girls forced into marriage with older men are benefiting from this wondrous teaching of Islam?
Hell, how many of the subjugated, oppressed, women are benefiting from this doctrine?
What about the 40,000 dead protesters in Iran, how did this work out for them?
I never claimed to be an expert on Islam, but you can pull that crap out all the time. In the beginning Islam wanted to be friends with Jews, until the Jews refused to accept their teachings so later you their book they discuss how Jews must be eliminated. Which is why historically Muslims have practiced genocide against Jews.
You'll also note in the Qur'an that they are to befriend all their neighbors--UNTIL they are in a position of power. It's called deceiving your enemy so as to get power over them. It's called perfidy and they have practiced that for a couple thousand years. Don't know the meaning of the word? Try this:
Perfidy refers to acts of betrayal or treachery, particularly in a context where one party deceives another by pretending to act in good faith, such as feigning a truce or surrender during warfare. It is considered a violation of the laws of war and is specifically prohibited under international humanitarian law.
Oh, and their "golden rule" is between Muslims.
OKAY, with two "anonymous" commenters, it gets difficult to follow, but I'm assuming it's Danny when stupidity is posted because Craig is more intelligent.
Thanks, I’ll try to leave my name.
It’s possible have more knowledge than Dan, and not be an expert.
Yeah, Glenn. I'm well aware of what priviled, emotionally fragile digits have to say about Islam. No need to repeat the bigotry out loud and further indictment yourself.
The difference between irrational bigots and responsible good faith adults is that the adults can say, "There has been way too much oppression and harm, murder and bigotry from religious extremists over the centuries, and that includes Myslims, Christians, Mormons, jews and even Buddhists and I stand opposed to all such violent extremism."
...while the emotionally fragile and cowardly bigots inevitably want to blame ALL the people of a given religion or sect, regardless of their acceptance of violent extremism... hence, Bigot.
Craig presumptuous and falsely claimed...
"It seems germane to note that Dan did not quote the Quran for his claim about Islam"
I cited multiple, at least two verses, from the Quran. You, in your ignorance must have missed that.
Beyond that, WHO is better informed to state what Muslims believe? Actual Muslims or privileged white bigots who adhere to their own form of religious extremism and bigotry?
[Rolls eyes]
Had you cited the Quran, you’d have included the “chapter/verse” reference. It’s clear that you just googled until you found a “Muslim” you agreed with and copy pasted the snippets that you liked.
By all means cite the specific passages.
I guess we’ve entered the ad hom attack portion of the thread.
Dan’s desperation to avoid acknowledging the track record of Islam since its inception which continues today is concerning. To actively hide from reality, and dodge questions along with the personal attacks seems to indicate that Dan has run out of substance but won’t acknowledge it.
Craig
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15557369/palestinian-activisit-nerdeen-kiswani-dogs-banned-nyc-islam.html
We are seeing an attempt in NYC to ban dog ownership for everyone because some Muslims consider dogs “haram”. Because that is exactly how a religion with a platinum rule for treating others operates.
“ Dogs are Haram. In my worst nightmare I could never imagine an ideology that bans dogs, dancing, music, alcohol, and yet child marriage and raping those who don’t share your beliefs, is entirely acceptable. Yet here we are… Islam 101.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-43729301.amp
The platinum rule in action.
Who is more able to express Muslim beliefs than a Muslim as this video from a Hamas leader demonstrates.
https://x.com/i/status/2022466228720406896
" In the Qur’anic hell those punished will be struck by angels, drink boiling water, and eat from the tree of Zaqqum, whose fruit is like the heads of devils. On numerous occasions the Qur’an seems to promise unbelievers that their destiny is hellfire. In chapter 5 the Qur’an has Jesus declare, “Indeed whoever ascribes partners to Allah, Allah shall forbid him [entry into] paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire, and the wrongdoers will not have any helpers” (Q 5:72). In the second chapter God himself declares, “But those who are faithless and deny Our signs, they shall be the inmates of the Fire and they shall remain in it forever” (Q 2:39). Dozens of such statements could easily be culled from the Qur’an."
Given Dan's aversion to any of the Biblical pictures of Hell, he should be equally outraged about this.
"Q2:61
And [recall] when you said, “O Moses, we can never endure one [kind of] food. So call upon your Lord to bring forth for us from the earth its green herbs and its cucumbers and its garlic and its lentils and its onions.” [Moses] said, “Would you exchange what is better for what is less? Go into [any] settlement and indeed, you will have what you have asked.” And they were covered with humiliation and poverty and returned with anger from Allāh [upon them]. That was because they [repeatedly] disbelieved in the signs of Allāh and killed the prophets without right. That was because they disobeyed and were [habitually] transgressing."
"Q2:65
And you had already known about those who transgressed among you concerning the sabbath, and We said to them, “Be apes, despised.”"
"Q2:96
And you will surely find them the most greedy of people for life – [even] more than those who associate others with Allāh. One of them wishes that he could be granted life a thousand years, but it would not remove him in the least from the [coming] punishment that he should be granted life. And Allāh is Seeing of what they do."
"Q4:47
O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ)], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the matter [i.e., decree] of Allāh accomplished."
Absolutely, the Quran teaches the unicorns and rainbows Utopia you fantasize about.
Dan's attack on me just proved his abject ignorance of Islam and its teachings. Studying history is apparently extremely difficult for Dan because just a wee bit of studying history demonstrates the true teachings and practices of Islam. Oh, but the LEFT in the USA seems to think Muslim are just another peaceful religious group totally ignoring all the death and destruction they have always committed world wide. Oh, and Minneapolis and Dearborn are such peaceful and friendly communities as the scam the USA out of billions of dollars sent back to their homelands!
https://x.com/eyakoby/status/2022466583134675451?s=46&t=cLq01Oy84YkmYPZ-URIMYw
Who knows more about what Islam teaches than Islamic clerics?
https://x.com/isaacrrr7/status/2022675966229708843?s=46&t=cLq01Oy84YkmYPZ-URIMYw
Another example of how well the Islamic world lives out the platinum rule Dan goes on about.
Um, I can't understand Hebrew.
https://x.com/realmaalouf/status/2022616975017394459?s=46&t=cLq01Oy84YkmYPZ-URIMYw
Perfume? Really?
I’ll look for a translation
FYI, it’s one of the Israeli hostages recounting being sexually assaulted every day she was in Hamas captivity. Clearly this is more of this high standard Islam expects from its adherents.
https://x.com/isaacrrr7/status/2022801559243927918?s=46&t=cLq01Oy84YkmYPZ-URIMYw
Is this Islam saying that they want other religions to burn their stuff down?
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