In a thread over at the cesspool, Dan posted a list of people who "liberals" consider to be "heroes" (he also posted a BS list of conservative "heroes"). I calmly and respectfully pointed out that his list didn't include a few people who are clearly heroes to "liberals". My list included Margaret Sanger. Many high profile liberals have proudly accepted awards named after Sanger (isn't the existence of these awards proof enough of her position in the liberal pantheon?", which would seem to indicate that he's considered a "hero".
I then listed some people based on the popularity of the merch that liberals buy and wear. Guevara, Mao, Lenin, and Stalin to name a few people. I can't think of why anyone would buy and wear merch with these guys likenesses if they did not consider them "heroes".
Surprisingly, Dan deleted my comment and commented thus.
" Craig also had to come here and try to tear down good, wise people rather than either having kind words at the passing of someone or just stay away.
This is not a place for you to engage in hateful attacks of people you don't like, Craig. Be a better person."
For the life of me, I cannot comprehend how adding a few names to Dan's list (with good reasons) elicited this response. I literally do not "tear down" anyone, nor have any "words" related to Barry. I was literally and specifically responding to Dan's comment and his absurd comparison.
Dan's original comment in bold below.
"Progressive saints/heroes...
Wendell Berry
Barack Obama
Dorothy Day (who wouldn't want to be called a saint!)
Annie Dillard
Jimmy Carter
Rev. Dr Martin Luther King, Jr
Gandhi
Jane Goodall
Jesus, in his own words
Etc. Actually good people noted for their great love and stands for justice for all and human rights.
Conservative heroes
Trump (corrupt felon, sexual predator and war criminal)
Reagan (war criminal)
Kirk
Jan 6 felons (violent criminals)
White men who shoot black men (violent criminals/murderers)
ICE kidnappers and murderers...
White "Jesus," in THEIR conservative words (ie, not actually Jesus)
Etc. Actually bad and vulgar people, criminals and killers, and frankly, as a rule, just generally not that bright.
You will be known by the heroes you keep."
When I saw what Dan had done (I deeply regret not copying my original comment), I responded with the comment below. Reiterating my reasons for my additions, and pointing out that he falsely characterized the comment he deleted. This behavior is nothing new, and I should have known he'd react this way and kept a record of the deleted comment so that I could prove his false characterization.
"Dan.
I'm shocked that you would so blatantly characterize my comment so falsely. I merely added a few names to your list of liberal heroes. The first name was added because so many modern liberals cite her has an influence and regularly accept an award named after her. I could have added another individual that liberals lionized (and Biden glowingly eulogized), but chose not to.
I then pointed out the fact that many, many liberals wear merch with the pictures or symbols of their liberal heroes. Surely you can agree that the only reason one would spend money on merch and wear it in public is because they consider the person on the shirt or hat a hero.
But, as usual, you chose deletion and false characterization, over transparency and honesty.
I have no doubt that this will disappear soon as well. I was correct. My comment disappeared, replaced by more misrepresentation of what I said Thank goodness for copy/paste so that the Truth can be preserved Apparently reality is hateful
“Craig also had to come here and try to tear down good, wise people rather than either having kind words at the passing of someone or just stay away.
This is not a place for you to engage in hateful attacks of people you don't like, Craig. Be a better person.
31 comments:
Your deleted post that you chose to write on a MEMORIAL post honoring the passing of a great, decent and wise man. Instead of honoring Berry, you and your comrades chose to try to make it dirty, vulgar and political.
Shame on you all.
Your deleted words:
You left Margaret Sanger off of your list
If the measurement of liberal hero includes merch sales, then Che Guevara, Mao, and Castro probably make the list.
From AI (which states what I'd state - as well as mainstream progressives I'm aware of):
SANGER:
Margaret Sanger is viewed with mixed feelings by liberals, as some celebrate her as a reproductive rights pioneer while others criticize her historical connections to the eugenics movement.
GUEVERA:
No, Che Guevara is generally not considered a hero by mainstream liberals, as his Marxist-Leninist and authoritarian beliefs directly conflict with liberal democratic values.Political DivergenceAnti-Liberal Ideology: Che Guevara was a committed communist and revolutionary Marxist who rejected liberal democracy, capitalism, and representative government in favor of a one-party socialist state.
MAO:
No, Mao Zedong is not considered a hero to liberals; instead, mainstream liberal political thought views him as an authoritarian dictator responsible for massive human rights abuses and the deaths of tens of millions of people
Etc. You're confusing what some few college or high school kids who are still in their educational process choose to wear as shirts for actual progressive support. You're not thinking clearly because, OF COURSE, Mao and Guevera are NOT promoters of human rights and liberties.
But never mind reality and shit. Let's go take a dump on a memorial to a great man, THAT's a rational, decent thing to do.
Shame on you.
Your comments were literally OFF topic and literally disrespectful at a memorial. Not to mention NOT based on anything I believe or have said. Be better. Learn from Berry, in that regards, who famously (in Berry circles) said:
"Instead of reading Chairman Mao
I think I'll go and milk my cow."
I cannot comprehend how adding a few names to Dan's list (with good reasons) elicited this response. I literally do not "tear down" anyone, nor have any "words" related to Barry.
The purpose of the post, once again, was a MEMORIAL to a great man who had just died and whose name is spelled BERRY. YOU came there and compared him (and his inclusion in a list of actually good, wise people like Gandhi, King, Carter, Obama, etc)... you compared him/them to brutal dictators much more like your criminal that YOU keep voting for. You compared these people recognized for their wisdom and peacemaking and graceful living in a Beloved Community to human rights villains.
And yet, SOMEHOW, you are puzzled as to why that's "tearing down" good people.
AND, as you admit, you had NOTHING to say about Berry, which was the point of the post.
Do you recognize that Reagan and your Felon (both of whom have ordered actual human rights violations, overseen the killing of US citizens and immigrants, overseen executions overseas, etc) are MUCH more closely identified with your dictators than Berry, Gandhi, Carter or Obama (who certainly had his problems on this front - just not at a Reagan/Trump/Mao scale)?
At the very least, begin with that acknowledgement and show you're operating in good faith and with some connection to reality.
Take your human rights abusers away from my blog and store them in their rotten swamp of history where they belong, they have no place at a memorial.
I’m merely pointing out observed reality. Liberals wear the merch and find Sanger’s organization. Truth hurts.
An incredibly verbose bunch of excuses for arbitrary deletion and misrepresentation.
Sunshine is said to be the best disinfectant, too bad you choose to keep things in the dark and lie about them.
C
Craig:
I can't think of why anyone would buy and wear merch with these guys likenesses if they did not consider them "heroes".
Irony? Pushing back on the vulgar villains of conservatism? Why don't you ask a 17-year-old and learn why they're wearing a Mao tshirt. (Frankly, I've not seen that, but then, I'm hanging around actual adult progressives and smart kids/young adults). The point being there are probably many reasons why someone would wear such a shirt that doesn't include: I think this person is a hero and a model of great progressive values.
But find the essays or books in praise of Mao or Guevera from adult progressives who are familiar with history, IF you want to posit that considering them as role models is something progressives do.
Well, them’s some creative excuses for wearing merch glorifying mass murders. Your ability to redefine reality to suit yourself is impressive. Especially given the incredibly vocal and public support of Hamas of late.
I, of course, do not wear that sort of "merch." And we're talking about MY page, MY views, Wendell Berry's wisdom on his passing.
If you want to find a teenager praising Mao and blast that child with your venom, knock yourself out. It just has nothing to do with me or Berry, who YOU just compared to dictators in a memorial to his life and wisdom.
And when called on it, you refused to apologize for your vulgar attack.
Learn from Berry. Be better.
Dan
Craig...
"Your ability to redefine reality to suit yourself is impressive."
Again, reality is that I'm NOT supporter of any violent fascists, whether they're US presidents or dictatorship elsewhere. To try to suggest the reality is that I support such things is not reality. You're thinking of you.
Dan
I just checked your blog, Craig, for the week or so around Kirk's murder. You posted multiple posts about it (mostly other people's words) and lamented his killing.
And you know what? Not ONE time did I come crap on Kirk, even though he was known for saying, "“I think it’s worth it. It’s worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God given rights."
But I didn't comment on his passing in any negative way. Indeed, YOU found it worthwhile to blame me for not taking the time to lament his passing on my blog (where I also didn't say anything about it), but that is only testimony that I didn't go around talking ill of the dead. And he was not even a universally beloved great wise person like Berry, or Dillard, or Dolly. (And I will note the unsurprising absence of any comments lamenting the death of these great people on your blog. Not even Dolly!
But you take the time to criticize me for not lamenting Kirk's death and take that as some sort of insult?
Not ONCE did I compare Kirk and his followers to young socialists or Mao or any other dictator - not even Trump! But I post ONE memorial to Berry and you think it's okay to compare him to dictators. You don't understand how very vulgar and crude and, frankly, just historically stupid that is...?
That's a You problem, not my problem. You should have learned better from your conservative forebears who would have taught you to be more polite and respectful than that.
Also, worthy of note and a point I made on my blog: Who people idolize and lift up as important and heroes is telling. NO posts from you on Berry, Dillard or even Dolly, but several (a dozen?) on this young man idolized by certain segments on the maga right. Recent deaths in the last few years... Jimmy Carter's death? Silence. Jane Goodall? Silence.
Who you idolize (and who you disrespect or villainize) says a lot about you.
Yet, the reality is that there are thousands/millions of liberals who are proudly supporting the work of Sanger and the goals of Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, and Guevara. That you personally don’t, or claim not to, is irrelevant to those who do.
Perhaps you’ve heard of a liberal gentleman named Tom Morello, of his band Rage Against the Machine. When Tom performs in from of thousands a night wearing a Che shirt, selling RATM merch with Che on the front, or using the iconic Che photo for stage decorations that’s reality. We can literally see it happening. We can’t see you.
That’s just one example of a multi million selling band, which sells out tours, pumping for communism using Che.
But what care you for reality beyond yourself and your silo.
Apples and oranges because Kirk’s killing was a political killing by a liberal.
Thar you personally didn’t “crap on” Kirk, doesn’t mean that there weren’t vast numbers of our fellow liberals doing so. Hell, we saw some incredibly vile behavior on the anniversary of Kirk’s murder. Likewise we saw plenty of vile crap from liberals when Trump was shot. Much admiration for Luigi and Clancy for their killings.
I’ll have to go back and see what you actually said about Kirk, I’m reasonably confident that you spread some BS.
Yes I’d did, I was making a point. You regularly castigate anyone you can credibly accuse of a “right wing” violent attack, while staying silent when “left wing” violence occurs. I’d have thought you’d have had the consistency to condemn Kirk’s left wing killer the same was you condemn “right wing” violence. And you didn’t, a fact you now boast of.
Thar you feel the need to make shit up and make false claims about what I said makes you seem paranoid.
In general I don’t write about deaths from natural causes of celebrities. I don’t do much pop culture. I certainly don’t write paeans or hagiography about relatively fringe leftist writers unless there’s a compelling reason to. In this case, there wasn’t.
I know you’re a fanboy and you’re sad because someone lined a long productive life and died like we all will.
That added a few names (with valid reasons) to your list of leftist saints is none of the horrible things you accuse me of. Chill out.
FYI, look at my posts when any leftist political figure dies, or after the MN representative shootings. But why screw up a good narrative that makes you sound like an amazing person.
Because you’re so obsessed with this that you have to repeat the same BS.
I’m a busy man with limited time and I don’t write about every pop culture or liberal or icon that dies of natural causes.
Craig stupidly, falsely claimed (with zero support, per his MO)...
the reality is that there are thousands/millions of liberals who are proudly supporting the work of Sanger and the goals of Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, and Guevara
Bullshit. Simply idiotic, diarrhetic BS, nothing else. MAYBE, there are many who support Sanger because of her women's rights part of her work (and perhaps who are not familiar with her eugenics shit - which I believe she eventually abandoned), but the rest is just lame bullshit that simply isn't true.
But by all means, TRY to support this slanderous BS that you're doing here AND which you crapped on Wendell Berry's memorial with on my blog.
I won't wait, because you won't do it, because you can't do it, because, once again, it's empty-headed bullshit.
Craig lied:
That added a few names (with valid reasons) to your list of leftist saints
I'm NOT a fan of dictators and fascists and violent oppressors. NOT of Mao and NOT of Trump. The difference between you and me is that you've voted THREE times for your oppressor/killer/corrupt conman/pervert. And you did so knowing exactly what a POS he is.
Be a better person, Craig. Begin with an apology and then move on from there.
Oh, damn the incantations are back.
I’ve been posting for months what the candidates that thousands of liberals are voting for are saying. I’ve posted what Mamdani and his staff have said about confiscation of private property. That you choose to ignore what your beloved liberals are voting for isn’t my problem. Let alone the liberal support of Muslim candidates who quickly become illiberal when they get control.
Thar liberal politicians gladly accept awards named after Sanger is one more inconvenient truth. Your willingness to absolve Sanger of the philosophy that undergirded PP is cute. Talk about supporting a fascist, you and Hitler both Sanger supporters.
I crapped on nothing, but you keep telling yourself lies.
Thar is literally a perfectly accurate account of what I did. I added a few names that liberals have made heroes out of, and I explained my rationale for doing so.
Are you seriously going to deny the fact that Che/Mao/Lenin/Stalin/Castro are not fashion statements among some on the left? That RATM didn’t use Che for branding and stage decorations and Morello didn’t wear a Mao hat on stage?
This last comment gets to the heart of your rage. You, as an arrogant narcissist, take personally my noting that thousands of your liberal brethren have made heroes out of these folx. You think that you can impose your likes and dislikes on the entire liberal political class and can get offended when reality intruders.
Trump isn’t a dictator, fascist, or violent oppressor as Mao and the rest were. But you cling to that fantasy being real because you need someone to hate. So you live in a world where your fantasies are true, and reality offends you.
I have nothing to apologize for, I’ve said nothing negative about your saints, I’ve said nothing about them at all. But you keep pretending and getting angrier and angrier.
Craig:
Are you seriously going to deny the fact that Che/Mao/Lenin/Stalin/Castro are not fashion statements among some on the left?
Are. you seriously going to suggest that I didn't ALREADY SAY that, yes, some teenagers where Che tshirts? Do you understand that this does not translate to "Liberals support Mao/Lenin/Stalin/Che?
Seriously, son, I worry about you. Just how dumb are you? What is the problem with your reasoning?
Do you SERIOUSLY think there are any adult serious progressive types who are fans of Lenin, Stalin, et al?
You can't possibly be that stupid. Hell, you don't need to improve on ONLY your reading for understanding. You need to improve your Living Life as a Rational adult for understanding.
Here. Here is your assignment if you want to be taken as anything but a crackpot:
1. GO OUT on ALL THE WEBS.
2. FIND a rational progressive who is singing the praises of Lenin. Stalin. Mao.
3. When you can't (and you won't be able to find it because - dude! it doesn't exist!), come back and admit it.
You know, be a rational adult. Not a maga crackpot.
Craig:
I’ve said nothing negative about your saints, I’ve said nothing about them at all. But you keep pretending and getting angrier and angrier.
Angry? At this grade school paranoid nonsense? Please. I'm saddened at how pathetic, how vulgar, how irrational, how stupid the "religious" "right" has become, the way they/you all embrace conspiracy theories from objectively bad people and enable them to get rich off their cons at the cost of all of us (including you but especially, including the poor and marginalized).
You all sadden me that you can't read for understanding or just have the basic decency to keep your vulgar, irrational mouths shut EVEN AT a memorial of a man far greater and more decent than you.
So, Tom Morello and RATM are just a bunch of ignorant teenagers. Gotcha.
Anger, incoherence, and paranoia is not a good look for you. Your ability to imagine vulgarity, indecency, and irrationality where none exists is impressive.
Your arrogance and narcissism are showing. You don’t get to make demands here.
I’ve referenced at least one example of someone who’s built an entire brand on making Che cool and you’ve ignored that. So I’ll simply be confident in knowing that anything I’d provide will also be ignored.
Maybe when I’ve got more time and am on my computer (and not getting ready for dinner guests, and a big day tomorrow), I’ll post some of what I found earlier.
The fact that I gave you a perfect example and you’ve ignored it doesn’t give me much hope that you’d admit if you’re proven wrong anyway.
Is wearing a “Mao hat” complete with a red star or red star with a hammer and sickle in public (in photos or large public gatherings) enough of an endorsement?
Dan is in the place where he substitutes personal experience (well I’ve never seen/heard/experienced something so that thing simply doesn’t exist) for observable reality.
Your ability to imagine vulgarity, indecency, and irrationality where none exists is impressive.
Whether or not you understand it, it IS indecent and vulgar to go to a memorial page of a man who was a peacemaker and human rights defender and add his name in with a list of authoritarian oppressors. To suggest it's "my (Dan's) list of heroes" is an insult to my list and has NOTHING to do with anything I've said, and so, on top of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, it's slander and just stupid. MY list of heroes IS a list of peacemakers and beloved community types. YOUR names you added do NOT fit on my list.
I don't know how you've gotten so bad at reasoning or understanding. I'm worried about you, Craig. This is just gross and idiotic. You're getting worse and I suspect it has to do with your conservative indoctrination, causing you to become more and more pharisee-like and on the side of oppressors and less and less Jesus-like.
You've listed "one example," of a pop star or something, and you think THAT is representative of progressive thinkers? By that measure, Kid Rock is the spokesperson for conservative religionists like yourself... are you satisfied with that?
You're not a credible anything, any more, Craig. You're a waste and a shame to the conservatives with at least some level of dignity and intelligence. Be better. Repent, and be better.
Yeah. He stated the purpose of the post was to canonize...uh...memorialize Berry, but then adds this list which cannot help but draw attention for the disparagement of good conservatives (based on their good works) due to their "missteps" and "missing the mark". To put Barry Obama MLK Jr and Ghandi on his "saints" list and not Donald Trump, too, demonstrates a horribly corrupt sense of character assessment.
I seem to recall "adult progressives" lauding the Castro Bros, Hugo Chavez (and then Maduro). Many of them continue to revere known sex offenders like Bill Clinton, Roman Polanski and Harvey Milk (who dug his teen boys). Indeed, Obama Sec of the Navy, Ray Mabus advanced and implemented the naming of a naval vessel after that creep, and the notion pushed by "progressives" like Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein. But I think we've just witnessed Dan redefining "progressive" to mean on those with whom he hangs around.
Each time Dan refers to Trump as an oppressor, I will remind all who might be reading that Dan supports abortion "rights". Nothing says "oppressor" like defending the most barbaric slaughter of the most defenseless people.
Ah...I think you missed the caveat, Craig. You're to find "rational" progressives. And according to Dan, a "rational" progressive wouldn't dream of expressing support for scumbags...except if the scumbag is someone like George Floyd, for whom progressives erected statues, painted murals and made and sold T-shirts with his name on it. Noted "rational" progressive Barack Obama said, "If I had a son, he'd look like (scumbag street punk) Trayvon Martin. Yeah. "Rational" can be very selectively applied.
That you imagine indecency and vulgarity where none exists isn’t my problem, it’s yours. I literally pointed out examples of people who many leftists consider heroes.
But the insults and personal attacks definitely make your criticism more valid.
I do appreciate it when you show your ignorance.
Kid Rock isn’t positioning himself as a spokesperson for anything. He’s more conservative than most and plays to that audience, despite the fact that most conservatives aren’t fans. Morello/RATM have built a career on claiming to be communist/socialist and much of their iconography is Che and other communist leaders.
That you dismiss them as some “pop star” as if they have no influence at all is cute but ignorant. That I do what you demand and you summarily dismiss the relevant example isn’t helping you at all.
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