George Floyd died last night in an encounter with a Minneapolis police officer. Video shows the officer kneeling on the neck/back of his head and the victim died after him doing this for an extended period of time.
There appears to be no reason why Mr Floyd died during this encounter, and no apparent reason for the officer to have acted as he did.
This is absolutely a horrible tragedy and there is nothing in the video evidence that gives any justification for the actions of the officer.
The mayor has turned the investigation over to the BCA and the FBI, which is a totally appropriate action given the history of the MPLS police and city government for what has been labeled "institutional racism" in the city government and police department. It is absolutely critical that the investigation be undertaken by entities not in the control of the city of Minneapolis to give the appearance of an independent and unbiased investigation.
It's being reported that the two primary officers involved have been fired. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have been fired at some point, but it seems like this action (which isn't the standard response) could be problematic at their trial. I'm 100% on board with investigating, charging, and trying these officers. However, if their firing (as opposed to a suspension pending the outcome of the investigation) ends up causing problems at trial, the conspiracy theorists will be out in full force.
One last thing. I realize that a lot of folx are going to be riled up, especially since we have partial video of the incident that is incredibly damning, although possibly incomplete. What we don't have at this point (or what I haven't seen) is evidence of motive. Given that reality, it seems reasonable to be angry at what actually happened without injecting unknown factors into it.
305 comments:
1 – 200 of 305 Newer› Newest»If folx insist on attributing this incident to "systemic racism", then doesn't it seem reasonable to look at the system and those in control of that system? Isn't it reasonable to assume that the system in the abstract can't be racist? Aren't the people who control and operate the system the point where racism is introduced?
To be clear, I'm not affirming or denying the existence of "systemic racism", in the city of Minneapolis and Hennepin county, I'm simply asking that we consider those in power and not treating the "system" as something that exists in a vacuum.
"His address has been found, and honestly. The Minneapolis police can do far far better than employing someone who doesn't even live Minneapolis, or even in Hennepin county. The main officer in question lives over in Oakdale."
I just saw this comment of FB, and I can't for the life of me understand why it's acceptable to make presumptions about this guy because of where he lives. Then, to at least imply that living in Oakdale is somehow problematic, seems irresponsible.
I just saw the headline that Walz is "demanding" answers. I think it's safe to say that everyone wants answers, and one more voice "demanding" answers less that 24 hours after the incident doesn't seem productive or helpful. Given the problems with the MPD over the last few years, it seems like the best course is to turn over the investigation to outside agencies (as has been done), and give them time to do their work. Pushing for a rushed process with an outcome predetermined by something other than the facts seems like bad optics.
I wonder how long it'll be until the (POC) police chief is fired.
Looks like 4 fired.
Fair request.
I don't agree that anyone should be fired, including the officers accused, until all the facts are in and the investigation has found them guilty of behavior that warrants such a result.
The fact that the video doesn't show the whole story is a problem that goes back to the Rodney King fiasco that led to an unnecessary, unjustified and extremely criminal riot. More often than not, the camera starts rolling long after the problem that escalated began, never showing what led up to the unfortunate outcome and thereby inflaming passions of those predisposed to believing in the fallacy of "systemic" racism. The race-hustlers covet these "after the fact" videos as golden opportunities for exploitation. Their sheep then respond in the usual manner and justice is perverted.
More often than not, these incidents are the result of the refusal of the "victim" to abide the directions of the officers who are tasked with upholding the law. They accuse the cops of acting on racist motives and the cycle then perpetuates. While well aware there are examples of true police misconduct, I will always give the cops the benefit of the doubt, that their actions were not predetermined due to racism, but the consequences of dealing with an unruly suspect who may have been innocent of wrongdoing, but chose to be an a**hole because of his own racism and bias against law enforcement.
Caveat: I know absolutely nothing about this case specifically, but as described, it seems to be the same old thing.
I agree that the firing at this point is problematic for at least two reasons.
1. By deviating from how theses cases are normally handled (suspensions until the investigation is over), you are poisoning the jury pool and making a fair trial more difficult.
2. It actually increases the possibility that the defense can argue that the city’s action was prejudicial and open up the door of reasonable doubt.
3. It’s simply trying to drive the narrative to appease a bunch of people who likely don’t care about innocence or guilt, they just want people to go straight to jail without getting any of those picky constitutional rights involved.
Once you start the narrative that it’s “murder”, and that you know what motivated it, anything less will be seen as letting them go free. For instance if they finally get convicted for 1st degree man slaughter and get prison time, you’ll hear the same folk talking about how they got off with no punishment.
Clearly the best course of action is to jump to the most damaging conclusion within hours of an event, then don’t let any contrary evidence change your mind.
The “no justice, no peace” folx are out in force. Like it’s possible to get justice in 24 hours.
Because we all know that justice is best obtained by threatening violence.
Since at least one address is now public, maybe the crowd should head our east and serve justice tonight.
What I'm hearing from black folk is that when white folks say things like you're saying, it's because you have the privilege of waiting.
Just like slave owners had the privilege of waiting for a better time to end slavery. Just like white folks had a privilege to wait for better time to enforce civil rights.
How long, the Civil Rights protesters asked us, shall we wait? How long, the abolitionists asked us, will we have to wait? How many lives will have to be lost due to this racism? How long, they ask us today, will we have to wait?
You can't engage in genocide on a mass scale and racism on a mass scale for hundreds of years and keep asking the oppressed people to be patient. That some white people have the privilege I feel like it's okay to wait is just that, a sign of their privilege.
Listen to black folks.
"For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied..."
Listen to Dr King.
Which black folks, Dan? The BLM types or the Thomas Sowell types? I choose the latter because he deals in fact and reality, not self-serving narratives from race-hustlers. How long do we have to wait before this kind of crap ends? How long to we have to wait before the Eric Garners, Michael Browns and Trayvon Martins are portrayed as innocents when they were victims of their own combativeness? How long do we have to wait before gangs of black youth rampaging through shopping districts are not simply called "youths" as if young people of all races do that sort of thing? How long do we have to wait before black folks stop rioting every time they perceive injustice?
The reality is that the police brutality against blacks is myth. There is no "systemic" racism that results in blacks being targeted because they're black. If that were in any way true, why has it been shown that black cops are more likely to shoot black suspects than are whites. If that were in any way true, what's behind the death of unarmed white suspects?
Take your talk of privilege and ram it. It's crap.
Just to clarify, there should be no confusion as to my position. I have absolutely no problem in seeing these cops prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if the federal investigation results in evidence that warrants it. Why would I?
I will also acknowledge that while it isn't always possible to deal with an escalated situation "by the book", and that techniques such as kneeling on someone's neck might be against policy due to the high risk, I also know that things get out of hand and severe techniques may be warranted for the sake of the lives of the cops. If there should be any risk, it should only be on the part of the suspect, not the cop...assuming the cop is acting in good faith.
Dan,
What in the hell are you even talking about. Are you seriously suggesting that these officers be convicted and incarcerated without a trial? Should we let the angry, violent, crowd just string them up? Is that what you are advocating?
It was literally less than 24 hours, and the process is moving forward, there's no doubt they'll be charged and hopefully the city's rush to do something won't open the door for an acquittal.
I understand that it's important that you mark your territory, and I know you don't think I know or listen to any black people, but the fact that you have to nit pick to find some minor disagreement speaks for itself.
For any number of reasons, it is vital that these sorts of incidents are handled with attention to detail and that the rights of the accused are protected. My concern is that these guys will get off on a "technicality" if the investigation/process isn't done properly. I know this might be hard to hear, but the further away from the normal legal process this gets, the more likely the defense will be able to play the reasonable doubt card.
Some other random thoughts.
1. We didn't see anywhere near this level of impatience, outrage, or blood lust when a black Muslim cop freaked out and shot a white woman. I realize that there wasn't nearly as well documented and didn't appear intentional, but it's important to handle these incidents using the same process.
2. There is still absolutely nothing in the public record that indicates that the motive of the officers was driven by racism. That's not a conclusion about motivation, it's simply looking at the available evidence and drawing a rational conclusion. especially as one of the officers was Asian, and I haven't seen any evidence about the race of the others.
3. 24 hours after the incident, isn't the time for violence. Especially when there have already been consequences for the officers and absolutely zero indication that they are going to be supported by the city.
4. You mistake my suggesting that we "wait" for the legal system to move through it's process (it's unreasonable to expect indictments let alone convictions immediately), as suggesting that we wait until this blows over so the ex officers can get away with this. When what I'm suggesting is that we allow the system to work, as quickly as possible, in such a way as to bring about the conviction of the ex officers on the most significant charges possible. While doing it in such a way as to protect the rights of the accused, and to avoid giving the defense anything to work with that would be mitigating.
We're already starting to hear the term "systemic racism" thrown around. If that's an argument that is going to be made, then those who make it should probably be actively opposing both the "system" as well as those who have been in charge of the "system" if they are interested in credibility.
But that's just my opinion.
Art,
I see you pointed out Dan's tendency to treat "black folks" as a one dimensional, monolithic, group with absolutely no deviation from liberal orthodoxy tolerated. I've seen and listened to plenty of "black folks" who aren't engaging in this sort of rush to a verdict so quickly that we bypass all of that constitutional crap. This is just one more situation where our unalienable rights endowed by our Creator can be alienated to suit a political narrative.
I'm quite sure that the vast majority of the MPD want these guys tried, convicted, and enjoying the pleasurable wonders of the homosexual lifestyle as soon as legally, practically, and constitutionally possible. Because the majority of the MPD are good people trying to do their best and don't need scum like these making it harder.
Marshal... Which black folks, Dan?
The vast majority of black people view our society as having deep abiding scars from our very real racist, oppressive history. They believe that institutional racism is a reality and that black men and boys, especially, are threatened and harmed by racism.
Are you unaware of this?
Marshal... The reality is that the police brutality against blacks is myth. There is no "systemic" racism that results in blacks being targeted because they're black.
I'll let black people know that they are mistaken and you are right. I'll tell black families that they don't have to worry about their men and their boys being killed by a culture steeped in racism.
I'm sure they'll be relieved that some cracker has declared that their days of worry are over, lawdy, lawdy, will they be pleased.
Craig... What in the hell are you even talking about. Are you seriously suggesting that these officers be convicted and incarcerated without a trial?
I'm sorry. I thought I was abundantly clear in what the hell I am talking about.
What part of "Listen to black people," and "listen to Dr King" are you having trouble understanding? I'll be glad to break it down more for you if you'll just clarify what it is you're having difficulty understanding.
1. We didn't see anywhere near this level of impatience, outrage, or blood lust when a black Muslim cop freaked out and shot a white woman
Now, what in the hell are YOU talking about? Is there a history of black Muslim cops killing white women in our nation, so that white women live in fear of black Muslim cops?
Because we have a real history of black men (especially) and black people being oppressed and harmed by the authorities in our nation. Perhaps you missed that month of school?
Listen to black mothers. Remove the blinders.
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/09/29/the-racial-confidence-gap-in-police-performance/
Art, only listen to the Dan approved "black folks", only the ones who meet his test of ideological purity are ok, the rest all get referred to as "house niggers" by the "black folks Dan listens to. It's quite important to never contaminate your mind with different views.
In Minneapolis, black Muslim cops killing white women represents a significant percentage of MPD cops who kill innocent civilians. I guess it's just par for the course to devalue the loss of life to police shootings when it doesn't move the narrative forward.
Your study is purporting to objectively measure subjective feelings about subjective actions. While it's an interesting look at how groups of people perceive things, it's not really measuring reality. If for no other reason, than the fact that the majority of police interactions with civilians go unseen and don't balance out the high profile cases of police misconduct.
I appreciate your attempt to drive this conversation away from anything but raw emotion, and your (silent) approval of extending constitutional rights to these cops.
Not only did I pay attention to that month is school, I got part of the story around my dinner table from someone who experienced police brutality in the 60's. So how about you stop the faux superiority bullshit, and simply acknowledge that ignoring due process in this case is a bad idea.
Of course, I never said anything about only listening to some black people. This is just more of the nonsense, Trump-style stupidly false claims that modern GOP has so thoroughly embraced.
Again, listen to black people. Listen to Miss Ella and Dr Bernice...
"Until the killing of Black men, Black mothers’ sons
Is as important as the killing of White men, White mothers’ sons...
We who believe in freedom cannot rest
We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes."
Amen and amen.
https://ellabakercenter.org/blog/2013/12/ellas-song-we-who-believe-in-freedom-cannot-rest-until-it-comes
"A group of Hamilton County pastors wants Gov. Bill Lee to meet with them and find ways to "bring about changes" that will address alleged law enforcement brutality.
In their Aug. 12 letter to the governor, the black ministers state:
"We realize that there are good law enforcement officers, but there are too many who make their own laws and execute justice through usurping the power of the State laws.,,"
Listen to these black ministers in Tennessee.
https://media.timesfreepress.com//news/documents/2019/08/24/1566668453_Black-ministers-letter-to-Lee.pdf
Listen to this Christian, Anthony Fowler, dealing with the white members of his congregation who are whitewashing the oppression of black people...
"Martin Luther King, Jr. once famously said that 11 a.m. on Sunday morning is one of the most segregated hours in American life. Despite that sad historical truth, studies have shown movement, albeit slow, toward the integration of congregations. That progress is in danger of being reversed, however, with black worshippers leaving their mostly white churches in droves in recent years. We’re being pushed out by a failure of our churches to apply their professed values to racial injustice and, as I experienced, to the issue of police brutality...
In my 11 years as a very active member of the church, I had known that my pastor and a good number of the members were politically conservative, but it never bothered me much. I believed that our shared faith superseded any racial, social or cultural divisions. There was no room for strife in Christ, I thought. Then Philando Castile was murdered...
There’s no way anyone could deny that was wrong, I thought.
But deny it they did. I was mortified as I watched conservative pundits, politicians, and people I know wave away the circumstances and blame Castile for his own death. Ultimately, the response I heard from my then-pastor was the most disturbing.
In the middle of a Sunday sermon, without referencing the case directly, he spoke of a traffic stop he had some time before. In his story, he said that he informed the officer that he had his license and registration in a bag on his passenger seat after being asked for it. The officer asked him to reach for the license slowly and he did as he was asked. The rest of the encounter proceeded smoothly, he said, adding flatly at the end of the story, “And I didn’t get shot.”
It was like a punch in the gut."
A punch to the gut. That's what many, many black families, black mothers, black people are feeling every time another white person speaks from their position of privilege to deny the very real problems that they live with every day of their lives.
Marshal... "The reality is that the police brutality against blacks is myth."
Another punch to the gut.
Craig... "The “no justice, no peace” folx are out in force."
Another punch to the gut.
Listen to Anthony Fowler, Jr.
Listen to these black ministers and citizens of Texas...
“If the grand jury doesn’t come back with (a charge of) murder, we may have riots,” says Jeff Warren, senior pastor of mostly white Park Cities Baptist.
The African-American community is “boiling in outrage,” adds George Mason, senior pastor of mostly white Wilshire Baptist Church...
...But the Guyger story looked radically different to a large number of African-Americans. To them, this latest killing-by-cop showed that black men weren’t safe from police violence even in their own homes. To them, Guyger’s actions weren’t exceptional, they were merely the latest in a long list of unwarranted killings by police – licensed, armed vigilantes who regularly foment racism and violence against people of color."
https://baptistnews.com/article/in-racially-divided-dallas-another-unarmed-black-man-is-shot-by-police-black-pastors-challenge-their-white-colleagues-silence/#.Xs7DHsZ7lBw
Art,
Listen to the “black folks” that Dan screens and cherry picks to make sure that we get the approved narrative and property re-educated to his standards.
Maybe I can submit my list of “black folks” to Dan so that he can tell me which ones are appropriate to listen to. Because he can’t imagine the possibility that I listen to “black folks” without him.
What I’d like to see is the white liberals shutting up so we can actually hear the “black folks”.
Is it me or does “black folks” come off as condescending ?
Who would have thought that suggesting that these ex cops get their constitutionally guaranteed right of due process would be controversial?
So, if listening to “black folks” is the magical key, then wouldn’t it make sense that “black folks” up here would be the best “black folks” to listen to?
Black/Hispanic police chief. Should he be listened to or ignored?
Again, I'm not sure what you're not understanding. Read it one word at a time and let it sink in.
Listen to what black people are telling us.
....
Do you understand it now? I'm advocating listening to what black people are saying, as they are the experts on the black community. Listen to what ALL black people are saying, not just a handful of conservatives who happened to agree with you.
Listen to what black people are saying. Listen to ALL black people. If a majority of black people are saying something, pay close attention to what the majority says. If a vast majority are telling you the same thing, pay even more attention to what they're telling you.
Remember the advertisements, "four out of five physician say..."? listen to what the experts say and listen especially to what a vast majority of experts say.
This is just reasonable. If you're reading what I'm saying and concluding, "he's saying DON'T listen to what some black people are saying..." read what I said again because you're not understanding what I'm saying.
"Is it just me or does black folks sound condescending..."
It's just you. Folks is a perfectly normal word. You'll notice I use people sometimes and folk sometimes and maybe Community sometimes, there's nothing condescending in the word. I refer to white folk and gay folk and black folk, these folk and those folk.
Maybe it's an elitist or anti-Southern prejudice you have?
Craig... "What I’d like to see is the white liberals shutting up so we can actually hear the “black folks”..."
Maybe if you listened to black people you would understand. I hear regularly black people saying, "don't just say you're sorry when something like this happens. Speak up when your white colleagues say idiotic stuff or presume to talk down to us and tell us that racism is over."
Thus, I'm speaking up because I've been asked to by black people. Should I tell them that you told me to not speak up?
It's the same reasoning I have an asking conservatives to do the right thing and come out and announce Trump or denounce racism. If a white liberal talks about how bad Trump is, conservatives just write it off. There's a fellow conservative talks about how bad Trump is, they might listen. The reasoning is the same.
Black people want to hear white people speaking up (alongside with them) on their behalf and following their lead. That's what I'm trying to do. Gay people want to hear straight people speaking up on their behalf and following their lead. That's what I try to do.
Should I tell them that they're stupid for making that request?
"Marshal... "The reality is that the police brutality against blacks is myth."
Another punch to the gut."
Truth often has that sensation. It's inconvenient and too often avoided by those who buy into the race-hustling. The myth, however, is not that brutality against blacks doesn't exist or hasn't happened. The myth is that there is something unique about it...that it happens ONLY or MOSTLY to blacks. This is more than myth, however. It is a blatant lie. And even when it does happen, even when there are cases of police aggressiveness, more often than not it was the result of the behavior of those confronted by the police. This is true regardless of the race of the "victim" of such aggressiveness.
Then, to further distort reality for the sake of pushing that false narrative, incidents of clear misbehavior that lead to mishap...such as the Michael Brown or Eric Garner incidents...are falsely held up as examples of the police going too far, when the reality was that it was Brown and Garner going to far when they should have been compliant.
Yes. Punch to the gut? That may be the unfortunate response by those to whom race-hustlers have lied for too long. But the fact remains. It's a myth.
"The vast majority of black people view our society as having deep abiding scars from our very real racist, oppressive history. They believe that institutional racism is a reality and that black men and boys, especially, are threatened and harmed by racism."
Some buffoons think God would bless a homosexual union. The reality is what counts and those who enable false beliefs are evil. We will never have racial harmony so long as these falsehoods are revered by leftist liars like Dan, feo and BLM race-hustlers.
Should I be listening to the “black folks” who looted the Target or burned down the Auto Zone? Are those the voices to pay attention to?
So, I am supposed to listen to the looters, vandals, and arsonists. You really think they’re bringing value to the conversation.
“I refuse to hold ALL white people accountable for the actions of a few.
Why would I fight racism and prejudice with more racism and prejudice?”
Is this a black voice you’ll be listening to Dan?
I am impressed by all of the rioters, looters, arsonists, and bank robbers who are being conscientious and wearing masks. Even though they’ not doing much social distancing.
Oh, what? They’re not wearing masks because of Covid, ohhhhh I understand now. Never mind.
But it’s awesome that they had to import “protesters” from Chicago.
I was just going to comment on the reports of looting in Minn. The article I read chose not to provide any footage of the "protests" and looting, so I one can't see the race of the perpetrators. This is an example of what the troll refers to as a more loving community of people. I don't think we've seen a "white" version of this crap since a group of Italian men were unjustly lynched about 100 years ago. Yet, it's pretty damned common from the more loving people these days and has been for some time (it's sorta like the religion of peace). Progressive asshats like Dan will rationalize this behavior as a just response to the false perception of "racial injustice".
Two armed white guys and one armed black guy trying to protect private property from being destroyed, Twitter ignores the black guy and insisted that the racist white guys are on the brink of randomly shooting blacks down.
The majority of the peaceful looters, rioters, arsonists, and bank robbers they’ve shown on the news coverage have been POC. However there’s plenty of white folks hauling out their free 56” 4K TVs from the Target. Best guess from the coverage (mostly helicopters at this point because they’ve pulled reporters out due to danger) is 60% African American/African/Hispanic, 40% white.
As usual the carnage is in stores and areas that primarily serve and employ POC, so the people most damaged in memory of George will be lower income POC. They’ve also, once again begun the process of laying siege to the 3rd precinct (last time it was the 2nd). Although it’s not quite as bad as the last go around. For some reason they’re ignoring police headquarters and city hall. I guess the city leadership and police leadership bear no responsibility for any of this.
But Art, you know that pacifism is a central and non negotiable tenet of liberalism, so clearly it couldn’t be libs.
FYI, the knee in the back/neck is a technique that the city was supposed to discontinue the last time someone died from it, I’m guessing the city/department leadership will most likely get a free pass on this one.
Systemic racism somehow never starts at the top.
Because every peaceful protest needs a chainsaw.
"FYI, the knee in the back/neck is a technique that the city was supposed to discontinue the last time someone died from it..."
This is the same as the choke hold employed on Eric Garner. That cop was reprimanded for employing a technique the department policy forbade. I disagree with these kinds of policies. What is more deadly than one's service weapon, but no department (thank God) forbids the use of guns. They simply teach best practices. Yet no preference will result in perfect outcomes. The cops need to protect themselves and I give them almost carte blanche in deciding which techniques are appropriate for a given situation with a given suspect. That would include choke holds and kneeling on someone's neck to subdue their combative response.
In the case of this due, he was supposedly already cuffed. But being cuffed doesn't make one subdued or not a threat. Suspects continue to struggle or run away when cuffed. Black suspects conditioned all their lives to believe cops are trying to murder them more so than most.
Multiple black folks violently attacking an elderly white woman who’s in their way and impeding their access to the good looting opportunities.
Peaceful protest my ass.
He was subdued and under control long before he died. Proper procedure should have had him sitting up long before he died.
Also the cop has his hands in his pockets, George wasn’t resisting.
City literally in flames from rioters and all of the local news stations choose reruns of late night talk shows or sitcoms.
Way to step up to the plate news people.
This was posted on the FB page of the neighborhood ravaged by rioters, in some cases imported from other states. I don’t know or care about this person’s skin color because it doesn’t matter. I guess if they’re black they get listened to, if not, screw them.
“Our Neighborhood was Destroyed Last Night by folks not from Phillips and maybe not even the southside. The folks I talked to were from Bloomington, Eden Prairie, Brooklyn Park, Apple Valley.
Had they done research they would have found that Phillips and Longfellow are Allies not Enemies. But they didn’t ask. And no one de escalated this.
We have lost hundreds of jobs in this economic hard time. Businesses were struggling to survive and now this extra burden was added. A man was shot and
killed on Lake & Bloomington.
No place to get groceries, no place to get prescriptions, no place to get supplies or clothes or greeting cards or sanitizer or cleansing supplies. Many with no car.
And let’s not forget we are in a Pandemic with all these strangers invading our Neighborhood.
No care by those that did this.
Selfish NOT Selfless.
They clapped as each building fell down.
This morning they will wake up patting their backs and enjoying a cup of coffee at the coffee shop they still have.
No police live in Phillips.
You are mad at police and you take it out on this Community? Really?
Mr Floyd was a Security Guard at a Downtown Shelter. He then was a Bouncer at a Club.
I grieve Mr Floyd.
So did everyone else here whose businesses and shopping area was destroyed. Phillips median income is $29,000 and it is very diverse.
Police don’t live in Minneapolis.
I can’t say anymore that I can publish.
I am heading over to our 3 generation, 80-year family store. My friend Julie Ingebretsens Store was trashed. One of the most kindest, giving people I know.
We were abandoned by City Leadership and left to burn.”
FYI, in MPLS, neighborhoods are a big deal. People go to great lengths to live in certain neighborhoods and identify by neighborhood rather than city. The fact that this neighborhood is crying out, is a bigger deal than perhaps non locals can understand.
"Listen to "black folks"
Well, we listened to "black folks" last night and they were heard loud and clear. Unfortunately what they said was that they don't give a rats ass about the people who live in the areas they destroyed. They don't care about the Target employees who they just added to the unemployment rolls. They don't care about the fact that in a city with a huge housing deficit, they burned down an apartment building under construction.
Now, I get to listen to a bunch of WL's try to justify the carnage.
This was a situation where you saw an unprecedented, across the political and social spectrum, level of agreement about the nature of what happened. There was virtually no one defending the cops, no way to add any degree of ambiguity, no way to "blame the victim", and these imported barbarians managed to piss all of that away in one night. For all that, they still aren't protesting in the right place or the right people.
Well, we listened to "black folks" last night and they were heard loud and clear. Unfortunately what they said was that they don't give a rats ass about the people who live in the areas they destroyed.
Listen to black people. ALL black people. Not a tiny minority who are so frustrated by centuries of oppression and murder that they struck out in dumb violence, but ALL black people. And that would include listening to the level of frustration that so many feel that they strike out in violence like these few did.
I'm still not sure what part of "Listen to black people" you are failing to understand.
Are you suggesting that "black people" advocate responding to oppression and murder with violence? Because they all do not say that.
Just to be clear, I'm defending this particular cop, as I don't know enough about him or the situation that led to this death. I was defending the technique as one which should not be forbidden. Preserving life and limb of the cop is paramount. We can determine the justification when a death occurs later, but restricting how a cop deals with a combative suspect is ludicrous if there is any concern for those tasked with upholding our laws.
I noticed something that suggests this particular cop had complaints against him on his record. I didn't read it to see what kind of complaints and by whom, but even this bit of news requires further investigation before suggesting it means anything. Any combative suspect, justly apprehended, will complain about brutality while brutally seeking to extricate themselves from justice. Just sayin'.
Art,
I wasn't suggesting that you were. I'm simply pointing out that there is local history and context that probably isn't showing up in the national news. I'm also pointing out that this is about a history of "systemic racism" (I'd call it something else) that goes way beyond these 4 ex cops.
You'll note that my prediction from last night's email was correct.
Dan,
I understand that you are saying "Listen to all blacks.". I suspect that you probably don't do particularly well at practicing what you preach, but that's expected.
The problem with such a vague, broad platitude is that it presumes that the black guy wheeling the 4K big screen out of Target, or beating the crap out of an old woman in a wheelchair, is equal in weight, validity, or gravitas to a Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, CJ Pearson, Candace Owens, Barak Obama, Colin Powell, the protesters who remained peacful, or Condaleeza Rice.
This is clearly absurd. Brutally beating an old woman in a wheelchair, stealing TV's, burning down desperately needed housing, killing people, and arson aren't about justice. They're about greed, hatred, and license.
The amount of real harm that these folks inflicted on people already suffering is not a joke or something to be blithely dismissed.
I was just as disgusted by seeing multiple young "black folks" brutally attacking a helpless old woman confined to a wheelchair as I was watching George Floyd suffocate, or as a was watching tape of a similar incident several years ago. I'm only slightly less disgusted by the political leadership of the city and state (and even Trump, although I believe he did the right thing by pushing the DOJ and FBI to move expeditiously) trying to use this carnage for political gain. Especially knowing that the local leadership is ultimately responsible for both the initial incident as well as for hanging citizens of MPLS out to dry during the rampage.
If you are serious about justice, then you will fully support the arrest and trial of anyone who can be identified while committing any violent crime during the rampage. If you are serious about justice and fairness then you should be able to muster up at least as much vitriol as you directed at a small number of white guys standing peacefully while carrying firearms as for the animals that brutally attacked the wheelchair bound elderly woman.
I have no problem listening to "black folks", I do it frequently. But I'd be insane to give them all equal credence. FYI, this is my policy regardless of the race, ethnicity, skin color, or country of origin of any group of people.
“Just curious, will the reconstruction costs be deducted from my "reparations"?”
Are black voices who can find humor in this situation ok?
Well said, Craig. This "listen to black folks" meme is idiotic in the assumption that we haven't been listening already. As you say, there are many "black folks" with something to say, but many who say that which is BS. Those who justify these criminal responses to perceived injustices are among them, because there is no justifying criminal behavior. It's rank exploitation of the death of someone they believe was unjustly treated for personal gain. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's one of those things that sounds enlightened and magnanimous, but in reality it means anything, and therefore means nothing.
Listening is such a low level activity. It requires virtually nothing. If you listen without discerning and simply assume that all voices are equally valid, you insult at least some of those you listen to.
Assigning value to what you listen to solely and entirely based on the skin color or race of the one talking seems like such a shallow means of determining what voices carry value or wisdom. Further, as we are seeing here. If merely listening is all that is required, then you're always going to have some voices that get drowned out by the voices that think that volume is a substitute for content. Unfortunately, Jesus didn't tell us "Those who shout the loudest will inherit the earth", so maybe we should be more focused on those who are meek and quiet, rather than those who are loud and violent.
But that's just me.
“Conservatives should embrace both 1. Law and order and 2. Justice for #GeorgeFloyd and anyone else who is wantonly brutalized by the police. The principle behind these two positions is exactly the same: equal justice under the law! ”
What about brown voices? Do they get listened to?
This "listen to black folks" meme is idiotic in the assumption that we haven't been listening already
If you've been listening to all black folks, then you KNOW that black people, by a large majority, are distrustful of police and will tell you that racism is still a serious problem in their lives and that their men and boys are especially at risk of harm in our nation. DO YOU RECOGNIZE that reality?
If you recognize that some 60-90% of black people think this (depending on how the question is asked and what is being asked), then doesn't it make sense that you would lead your comments by giving due respect to the vast majority of black people who think thusly and that you are NOT suggesting in any way that you are a better judge of racism than the majority of black people in our nation?
And thus, when some idiot white guy says, from his place of privilege, stupid shit like, "Listening (to black people) is such a low activity... it requires nothing... it sounds magnanimous and enlightened but it means nothing..." that you would BEGIN by saying, "Nonetheless, I recognize that the vast majority of black people in our nation recognize racism is still an oppressive problem in our nation and I want to honor their words and their experiences..." and then add what you might want to say before just dismissing all those black people's experiences as meaningless unless it agrees with your white worldview.
Listen to Dr King...
"…I think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis,
a riot is the language of the unheard.
And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity."
https://time.com/3838515/baltimore-riots-language-unheard-quote/
The phrase "wantonly brutalized" is subjective opinion. The response will be, "just watch the video". But how it looks doesn't necessarily denote how it is, particularly with the limitations of the video. "How it looks" to me doesn't appear excusable, certainly. But I still insist on more than the video provides. There's nothing there that suggests or guarantees that all other things being equal, the cop wouldn't be kneeling on a white dude's neck.
If riots are the language of the unheard, then who are the riots aimed at? Who are they trying to get to hear them? Is it the neighborhood Target and Aldi where people shop for groceries or work? Is it the small business owned to POC?
It seems as though the people who should be the target of the cries to be heard are the people who run and have run the system that has engaged in “systemic racism”, shouldn’t it? Is causing more pain and destruction to innocent bystanders really the best answer?
Excellent choice. Rioters who are unaware of the fact that MPLS and St Paul are different cities, have decided that looting in St Paul is a completely appropriate response to an incident in MPLS.
It’s clearly beyond your ability to comprehend that I am listening to “black folks”, and that this simplistic racial rubric fails on many levels.
Of course, your and other white liberals insisting of putting themselves in the spotlight, condescending faux superiority just gets in the way of listening. Equating all “black folks” as equally worthy of listening is foolish and simplistic.
I addressed the King quote.
Here’s some black folks you think we should be listening to.
“Shoot the police”
“Free shit for everyone”
“Loot every pawnshop”
I’m glad that you support these voices.
More voices Dan supports
“F@@@ the police”
Tell the guy shot dead last night that he’s just an acceptable, understandable sacrifice for “justice”.
Yes, listening is a low effort, passive activity. Hearing and engaging, that’s much harder.
A few white guys with guns, standing quietly, peacefully protesting.
“OMG NAZI’s are going to overthrow the government and legalize racism”
Thousands of rioting, looting, burning, killing, bank robbing, destroying folks ravage large sections of a city.
Well, it’s perfectly understandable. Anger makes it okay.
To be fair, some of the protesters are protesting in a much more logical place, the county government building.
If riots are the language of the unheard, then who are the riots aimed at? Who are they trying to get to hear them? Is it the neighborhood Target and Aldi where people shop for groceries or work? Is it the small business owned to POC?
LISTEN TO BLACK PEOPLE. LISTEN TO KING. ASK BLACK PEOPLE TO EXPLAIN. LISTEN TO WHAT THEY'RE SAYING ABOUT THE RIOTERS. LISTEN TO THE FRUSTRATION IN THE RIOTERS ACTIONS.
Do you suspect that King was an idiot who didn't know what he was talking about?
Listen to King.
That’s embarrassing. Amy Klonuchar had the chance to prosecute Chauvin in an earlier case and declined. Ultimately her office failed to get an indictment.
1. The optics aren’t great for Amy’s VP hopes.
2. Maybe this means that there really wasn’t enough evidence on that case for her to prosecute.
3. I wonder if the rabid leftists will accept her explanation for not prosecuting or if we’re just in pound of flesh mode and aren’t interested in facts.
It might be interesting for you to explain what you think King is saying in these sorts of comments. Sort of check your ability to understand what people are and aren't saying.
And then ask some black folks who are concerned about things like this what they think King was saying.
King is dead, so we can’t ask him to clarify.
I am listening to “black folks” aim at the wrong target, and watching them cause harm to neighborhoods full of people already suffering from the Covid restrictions.
You’ve built an entire “moral code” on harm, so let’s talk harm.
MPLS has been a food desert for years, the rioters have shut down 2/3 of the grocery stores in the neighborhood and caused grocery delivery services to suspend operations. I’d say denying people access to food is causing harm, wouldn’t you?
The rioters have shut down public transportation which many in the neighborhood rely on, so now folks can’t take public transportation to get food or safety. Sounds harmful to me?
By destroy numerous retailers, the employees are now thrust into the pool of millions already without work, yet they’ll likely be denied the Covid related extra benefits. Sounds like harm to me?
Many of the businesses destroyed are owned by local POC, I’d say they’ve been harmed. Especially since they don’t qualify for unemployment.
In the heart of a city with s massive deficit of affordable housing, let’s burn down a 7 story apartment building with at least a significant percentage of units set aside for affordable housing. Sounds like more folks getting harmed.
So, if causing people harm is immoral, then I guess y’all have a big old pile of immorality.
Of course bringing in people from out of town to foment the riots is perfectly acceptable, right?
Oh, we’ve got churches collecting supplies for the rioters, but not for those who’ve been harmed by the riots.
I know it’s hard for you to grasp, but some of us can be appalled at the killing of George, appalled at the wanton destruction and harm to people, and appalled at the city government that’s failed to fix this problem for over a decade.
Unfortunately y’all must not have that much bandwidth.
Or...
What do you THINK King was saying?
Are you that removed from the thoughts of black people and great civil rights leaders like King that you are unable to understand these words?
Your comments suggest so.
If you don't understand King, maybe that should serve as some impetus to listen even more to black people.
But no, you've got not time or desire for that. You'll just stick to your tiny little conservative echo chambers and demonize all who aren't in there.
King has words for that, as well.
38 units of affordable housing burned to the ground, because it’s somehow going to get justice.
To the 38 families who could have moved in there later this year the rioters say “F@@@ the renters”.
A community organizer referred to this as “street justice”.
The roots of this go back 50 years. 50 years of the same failed leadership of MPLS and Hennepin county.
I think I’d have to look at the entire context to do that, not the cherry picked sliver.
Personally I’m thinking that a Christian minister dedicated to nonviolence would be particularly encouraging of behavior that causes so much harm to innocent people.
It’s interesting that the same people who’ve been obsessed with forcing people to wear masks, social distance, and stay in lockdown, are all of a sudden cheering on the very behavior they kept claiming would “kill grandma”.
I’m impressed at your eagerness to ignore significant immortality because you support the perpetrators.
Craig, your complete and insular ability to read and completely misunderstand people's words is matched only by your reading the Bible and not understanding the words.
Add at least two more grocery stores shut down. Denying people access to food seems counterproductive, harmful, and cruel.
“Police brutality disproportionately occurs in Democrat-run cities.
Minneapolis isn’t Trump Country.”
Is this the kind of black voice we should be hearing?
Ahhh the “you don’t understand English” gambit. Always amusing, never effective. Obviously your choice to ignore that which you can’t handle is much more honest.
What part of depriving innocent people access to food bringing about justice.
FYI, the rioters have burned down multiple additional small businesses (likely owned by and employing POC), and the 3rd police precinct building. The city leadership has apparently abdicated their responsibility to protect the citizens.
If the goal of this carnage is justice, it’s disproportionate and capricious, if the goal is to gather support it’s a failure.
My favorite is a friend of mine, masquerading (hiding behind a clerical collar), wandering around filming to draw attention to his white, millennial, whiny ass.
Justice = random gunshots
"He goes on sharing his assessment on the U.S.’ unpaid promises to its formerly enslaved citizens, and the effect it was causing then: “So in a real sense our summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. As long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention.”
On numerous occasions he addressed America’s triple evils: economic exploitation, militarism and overt racism, causing civilians to question the system of capitalism, as well as inquire about reparations.
“A social movement that only moves people is merely a revolt. A movement that changes both people and institutions is a revolution,” from King’s book “Why We Can’t Wait.”
http://amsterdamnews.com/news/2020/jan/16/martin-luther-king-jr-riot-language-unheard/
"I would be the first to say that I am still committed to militant, powerful, massive, non-violence as the most potent weapon in grappling with the problem from a direct action point of view. I'm absolutely convinced that a riot merely intensifies the fears of the white community while relieving the guilt. And I feel that we must always work with an effective, powerful weapon and method that brings about tangible results. But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots.
It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear?
It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity..."
The entire speech...
https://www.gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/
MPLS schools just cancelled emergency child care for tomorrow, St Paul schools cancelled lunch deliveries for tomorrow,
More harm to those who need these services.
I appreciate Trump pushing the DOJ and FBI to quickly mobilize to help the BCA investigate the circumstances around George’s death.
I didn’t appreciate his grandstanding about it. At this point he needs to shut up about what’s going on other that to provide help if asked.
Wow, Dan chooses to recognize the value of context, while ignoring the harm to innocent people.
Not seeing Dan's comments, unless you're referring to comments from hours ago.
In any case, I just wanted to say that from the snippet of MLK that Dan provided, I'd have to say that MLK is full of crap, too. A riot is really the voice of the unhinged, not the unheard. And while King is doing the excuses thing in trying to explain it, I'll say he meant well. That doesn't mean his explanation isn't crap, or even more generous, that his explanation isn't intended in any way as justification or rationalization for such criminal behavior. But as Craig says, the entire context would be helpful. As it stands, it means nothing of value with regard to the obviously rank exploitation of a man's death in order to run wild, destroying and stealing.
As to listening to black folk, I prefer intelligent black folk who deal in facts and reality, not race-hustling fiction...like Thomas Sowell:
https://www.greensboro.com/z-no-digital/thomas-sowell-liberal-policies-lead-to-race-riots-and-increased-crime/article_7bc7da49-9f9a-5d70-8237-7c5cdd6238d2.html
The above link is good for also mentioning another black man who deals in fact and reality and is a loud intelligent voice in opposition to the race-hustlers who justify criminal behavior. That other black man is Sheriff David Clarke.
https://247sports.com/college/north-carolina/Board/102717/Contents/Race-Politics-and-Lies-Thomas-Sowell-71620597/
What's nice about this link is the fact that this type of criminal behavior isn't unique to black folk, but also to white folk who find themselves in similar situations under liberal social policies. That's important for race-hustlers and other lib knuckleheads like Dan and his troll who think the far more intelligent conservative perspective if a racial thing.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/fl-xpm-2014-08-27-fl-oped-urban-riots-ts-20140827-story.html
This one is another by this great black voice (really, he's just a great voice. His skin color doesn't mean anything, especially to lefties and other race-hustlers who find truth inconvenient to their narrative) and speaks to the use of aggressive police presence as opposed to the "let them riot" attitude of lefty politicians, like that Baltimore mayor.
https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/opinion/columnists/2016/07/14/thomas-sowell-war-police-officers/87076494/
This is one that shows how Dan's favorite race-hustlers, as well as those in the media, feed the beast that turns on their own communities in response to perceived injustice. It also shows how it goes back as far as the Rodney King fiasco and the subsequent barbarous brutality of low class criminally minded "citizens" of the black community. This reference brings to mind how common we have this nonsense erupt due to an incomplete representation of an event on a video, without any context. In this Floyd situation, it may well be that the full context won't alleviate what looks to be a really stupid cop doing harm to a suspect that ends up killing him. Like the video of the Laquan McDonald shooting, this may well prove to be just as the video suggests. I'm betting it will, though one never knows for sure.
In any case, "listening to black folks" isn't an argument, particularly if what the black folks those like Dan has in mind are simply spewing platitudes and baseless allegations resulting from perceptions corrupted by myth and race-hustling. "Black folk" like Sowell are far better sources of information for understanding why so many "black folk" Dan and the race-hustlers want us to hear think as they do. I've no doubt many of those "black folk" truly believe what they say. That doesn't make what they say true or worth hearing, if those black folk aren't willing to listen as well. That would then make them like Dan and his troll.
Dan supplies the full speech thereby proving its irrelevance to current conditions and motivations of today's rioters. Those "triple evils" are not at play here. Even if one can prove overt racism on the part of the cop(s), it would not in any way justify rioting...AT ALL...as the character of one cop, or even all four of them, in no way reflects the entire force, nor certainly the hundreds of thousands of cop nationwide. It DOES however, expose the criminal character of the rioters.
Part of my problem with the whole “justify the riots, looting, arson, assault, bank robbery, etc”, is that the entire thing hurts the people who they say they are trying to help.
I’ve pointed out the direct harm being caused to POC in parts of town that are disadvantaged. But, if you’re a POC small business owner who’s store was looted and burned (after being shut down for 2 months), where does that owner look for justice? The mother who can’t by food, where’s her justice?
MPLS is one of the worst cities in the country in which to be African American (The jury is still out on African immigrants), the schools suck, the housing situation sucks, the police department has major issues, and it’s been this way for at least 40 years.
The problem is, they’re rioting in the wrong places. Hell, Frey basically gave them free reign in the Corcoran neighbored, pulled the cops out and wouldn’t send the firefighters in because it was too dangerous. So, you’ve got idiots protesting a legitimately horrific act by a MPLS cop, by rioting and looting in St Paul, Burnsville, and other suburbs. Not to mention the poorest part of MPLS. Let’s ignore those responsible and cause harm to those not responsible.
FYI, the pictures of armed black and white men standing together to protect businesses as well as the motorcycle gang who protected a grocery store are heartening because at least we’re seeing individual citizens step up.
It’s a shit show, and Frey is the latest in a line of big promise, no action mayors.
It was crushing to see the original video, and equally crushing to watch the news last night.
I think what might be as disappointing as anything is that churches are stepping up to provide supplies to the rioters, while (from what I’ve seen so far and after asking a prominent SJW pastor on Twitter) totally ignoring those innocents harmed by the violence they’re fueling.
I think we no know that liberal pacifists aren’t particularly consistent.
It’s interesting that in the snippet of King’s speech everyone is quoting. He condemns riots, but goes on to say that they might sometimes be necessary.
1. I’ve not seen anyone who’s quoting the speech (certainly not the rioters), condemn the riots.
2. The point of the snippet is that riots are a result of the people in power not listening. That’s a totally rational position to p
3. Unfortunately all of the rioters, protesters, and those cheering them on, have voted for the very people who have been ignoring them for 40+ years.
4. They are turning to the very people who have nurtured the current situation and who haven’t been listening to them as the people who are going to magically solve the situation they created.
Maybe it’s time for a real change. Maybe it’s time to stop letting the fox guard the chicken coop.
Would you like me to explain the King piece to you, Craig?
Do you agree with Marshal that you all know better than King and that King is full of crap, at least on this point?
I'll be sure to let the world know that we have new successors to Dr King who know better what is good and right as it relates to the oppression of black people (which Marshal denies is even happening, it appears).
3. Unfortunately all of the rioters, protesters, and those cheering them on, have voted for the very people who have been ignoring them for 40+ years.
I'll be sure to let black people know that you have a better answer for them and that they are just too damned stupid to understand what is best for them in terms of politics. That will be well-received.
Good Lord, have mercy.
What it seems like you fail to understand is that it is white oppression and white complacency and white ignoring the problems of racism are what led to these riots. What leads to these sorts of violent outbreaks.
It is not the place for white folks, then, to now speak out, after centuries of being way too quiet, to condemn violence. It is not our place. It is not your place.
What we CAN do, if we are allies to the black community, is be allies. Listen. Follow their lead. Raise concerns but do it in a way that follows their lead.
For instance, "I'm greatly concerned that all this looting and rioting may only make things worse, but we need to remember the words of Dr King who told us that rioting is the language of the unheard..."
Also, conservatives complain when the football players quietly and peacefully took a knee to protest. That was wrong, they said. You all said. And as John Kennedy, I believe, reminds us, those who make peaceful protest impossible make violent protest inevitable.
Conservatives endlessly mocked and condemned and abused Colin Kaepernick for his peaceful protest. And nothing changed. Black lives still were treated like they didn't matter.
Conservatives complained and mocked and belittled when people said black lives matter. And still the oppression and killing of black men continued.
Did you know that Just last week, while a black woman lay in her bed, the Louisville police bust into her apartment and shot her dead? And then they charged her boyfriend with attempted murder when he shot back at the police?
They were in their homes! They did nothing wrong. Mistaken identity, the police said. Oops, they said. And she is dead.
Say her name.
Brionna Taylor is dead.
Murdered by the police in her home while she slept.
I think the problem is, way too often, that the white privilege the so many of us live with makes us blind to the outrage and fear and anger that all these black murderers and black oppression are producing. Which is why King said what he said.
One small step that white conservatives can make is too loudly and publicly and clearly apologize for all the mocking they did of those who peacefully protested, they could apologize for mocking the black lives matter movement. They can say, we were wrong. We can't make peaceful protest difficult and not expect violent protest.
Dan,
I’ve been to busy to read the entire speech, so not right now. I’ll set this, just because King said it doesn’t make it right. It’s entirely possible that he made a mistake.
3. Reality check. Elections have consequences. If a city/county is being oppressed by white peoples (I guess the black elected officials get a pass), and that city/country voted for those that ignore and oppress them, why would it be a surprise that they keep getting ignored and oppressed. It’s simple reality, if you do the same thing for 40+ years, don’t be surprised if nothing changes.
Your support for the oppressive, deaf government is noted.
“We must righteously voice our dissent but we must simultaneously follow it up with a strategy for a long-term solution. We need more than words. We need more than a protest. We need a plan. The primary source for this potential solution comes through the church. #icantbreathe”
Another black voice to listen to.
"…I think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis,"
I'm getting ready to read the entire speech, but I want to point out why I'm skeptical and want context.
Literally everyone who posts this speech to defend the rioters does two things which make me suspicious.
1. They all start with the ellipsis, which indicates that something has been omitted. Given that this quote is being used for a purpose, my suspicion is that the omitted part doesn't help the purpose.
2. They rarely note that he clearly says that the riots should be condemned, while they do everything but condemn the riots.
"What it seems like you fail to understand is that it is white oppression and white complacency and white ignoring the problems of racism are what led to these riots. What leads to these sorts of violent outbreaks."
You mean the "white" (I'm guessing Chief Arrondondo probably wouldn't appreciate being called white, but it's your racial profiling) government that the rioters (at least the locals, not the imported agitators) have been voting for for 40+ years. I'm confused. if you vote your "white" oppressor into office for decades, don't you bear some responsibility for the oppression.
"It is not the place for white folks, then, to now speak out, after centuries of being way too quiet, to condemn violence. It is not our place. It is not your place."
Then shut up! If you can't stand up for your "moral code", for people suffering literal harm, and for people being denied justice, because you're white then just shut up. Oh, and tell all the white liberal millennials to shut up to.
"Also, conservatives complain when the football players quietly and peacefully took a knee to protest. That was wrong, they said. You all said."
Actually, this is incorrect.
The problem with Kaepernick wasn't the fact that he was protesting, it was the fact that his employer had instituted a policy that prevented any protest during the playing of the national anthem. Absolutely no one would have objected had he peacefully protested "off the clock".
The other problem was that what Kap was protesting was a narrative that was demonstrated to be false.
But, this is a diversion. No one up here has any problem with the peaceful protesters, they are being encouraged, protected, and supported.
"Conservatives endlessly mocked and condemned and abused Colin Kaepernick for his peaceful protest. And nothing changed. Black lives still were treated like they didn't matter."
Really, absolutely nothing changed? You want to prove that?
"Conservatives complained and mocked and belittled when people said black lives matter. And still the oppression and killing of black men continued."
Maybe some did. But most simply replied that ALL lives matter. What is the #1 killer of young African Americans?
"Did you know that Just last week, while a black woman lay in her bed, the Louisville police bust into her apartment and shot her dead? And then they charged her boyfriend with attempted murder when he shot back at the police? They were in their homes! They did nothing wrong. Mistaken identity, the police said. Oops, they said. And she is dead."
While this is another horrific story, let's look at reality.
1. In the absence of reasonably conclusive proof, there is noting to suggest that either she or George we're intentionally targeted because of their race. In the absence of evidence, it seems counterproductive to make assumptions.
2. For someone who occasionally admits to being a fallible human who makes mistakes and expects his mistakes to be ignored, expecting perfection in others seems like a bit of hypocrisy. I know this will shock you, but these sorts of mistakes happen (again absent evidence of specific intent, a mistake is the only alternative), and they're tragic. But to draw unwarranted conclusions about motivation and such is irresponsible.
3. Murder requires intent. Can you prove intent? If you can, then do. If you can't use correct terminology.
As an aside, there is a lawyer from a little north of here who has had some really good takes on the "slow" process. His educated opinion, is that they are being careful and deliberate in building their case, and bringing a charge that will be the most likely to result in a conviction. I realize that that sort of thing might not matter now, but look what happened in Baltimore. The Baltimore case wasn't nearly as clear cut, but I suspect that (because of pressure) part of the problem was over charging.
"I think the problem is, way too often, that the white privilege the so many of us live with makes us blind to the outrage and fear and anger that all these black murderers and black oppression are producing."
This is quite the assumption and certainly a huge broad brush of millions of people you know nothing about. Especially as it concerns me. I spent over 20 tears directly trying to address some of the systemic issues within the black community. So get off your high horse, chill with the condescension, and at least pretend to comprehend the concept of grace.
I'll go into more detail later, but the reality is that when you talk about "white privilege" in MPLS/Hennepin county (St Paul and Ramsey county as well), you're talking about liberals (progressives, socialists, whatever term you choose). If you want to talk about the oppressive, not listening, privileged folx up here, the one thing they aren't is conservative. I know it's an article of faith with you the oppression=conservative, but in the Twin Cities you'd be dead wrong. So, when you speak from ignorance, you end up looking stupid.
"One small step that white conservatives can make is too loudly and publicly and clearly apologize for all the mocking they did of those who peacefully protested, they could apologize for mocking the black lives matter movement. They can say, we were wrong. We can't make peaceful protest difficult and not expect violent protest."
As I pointed out, conservatives aren't the oppressors up here. So, I'm not sure why conservatives should be apologizing for liberal oppression. Further, let's not forget that you (and much of the rest of the left) were talking about armed overthrow of the state of Michigan because a few white guys with guns stood quietly, peacefully, and respectfully protested the actions of the governor.
For you to join the hysteria about the MI situation, while silently encouraging harm to people who already in a difficult situation, does absolutely nothing to help your cause.
"In this other America, millions of people are forced to live in vermin-filled, distressing housing conditions where they do not have the privilege of having wall-to-wall carpeting, but all too often, they end up with wall-to-wall rats and roaches. Almost forty percent of the Negro families of America live in sub-standard housing conditions."
Well, now 38 few MPLS families will have the opportunity to move out of sub standard housing into brand new housing. Thanks rioters, I'm sure MLK would be proud.
"In this other America, thousands of young people are deprived of an opportunity to get an adequate education. Every year thousands finish high school reading at a seventh, eighth and sometimes ninth grade level. Not because they're dumb, not because they don't have the native intelligence, but because the schools are so inadequate, so over-crowded, so devoid of quality, so segregated if you will, that the best in these minds can never come out."
Thanks MPLS schools and the MEA.
"And I would be the first to say that I am still committed to militant, powerful, massive, non-violence as the most potent weapon in grappling with the problem from a direct action point of view. I'm absolutely convinced that a riot merely intensifies the fears of the white community while relieving the guilt. And I feel that we must always work with an effective, powerful weapon and method that brings about tangible results."
So, what you are applauding is people failing to use "the most potent weapon", something you claim is a vital tenet of progressive thought, but instead to use a weapon that "intensifies the fears of the white community while relieving the guilt.". Excellent strategy. I'm sure that MLK would be proud. Especially of returning a significant section of MPLS to a food desert, I'm sure the parents who need groceries are thrilled.
"And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity."
This is especially interesting in the MPLS context. There is a large number of WL's who's Priuses, &1,000 bikes, houses and yards are covered with support for the oppressed and marginalized. BLM signs, rainbow banners, houses painted in rainbow colors, Coexist bumper stickers, they've got all the trendy accessories. So this raises the question, are these progressives really committed to "justice and humanity" or is it simply fashion? Of course let's not forget churches "All are welcome", and businesses as well. A drive through white MPLS would convince even the most skeptical that the populations is down with the struggle. Another conundrum.
"The question now, is whether America is prepared to do something massively, affirmatively and forthrightly about the great problem we face in the area of race and the problem which can bring the curtain of doom down on American civilization if it is not solved."
Clearly MLK wasn't buying the racist LBJ's Great Society as the answer when he gave the speech. How much did we spend on the Great Society?
"t is the nymph of an inferior people. It is the notion that one group has all of the knowledge, all of the insights, all of the purity, all of the work, all of the dignity. And another group is worthless, on a lower level of humanity, inferior. To put it in philosophical language, racism is not based on some empirical generalization which, after some studies, would come to conclusion that these people are behind because of environmental conditions. Racism is based on an ontological affirmation. It is the notion that the very being of a people is inferior. And their ultimate logic of racism is genocide."
It's interesting that much of the philosophical underpinning for modern racism like this came from folks like Darwin and Sanger. Both heroes of the conservatives in America. That sounds wrong, maybe it's the other way.
"I've been searching for a long time for an alternative to riots on the one hand and timid supplication for justice on the other and I think that alternative is found in militant massive non-violence."
Doesn't sound like he's the fan of riots everyone paints him to be. I'll speak from personal experience. When the video came out the Twin Cities area was as united across all political and social lines as I've seen in almost 15 years here. There was unanimous consensus that the cops should be charged and tried. Well, the night before last, that consensus started to fray, and last night I got torn. Unfortunately there are too many people that can't hold more than one though at a time.
I hurt for George Floyd, his family and friends. He was killed unnecessarily, in a callous manner, for reasons unrelated to his alleged crime. The officers who participated, especially the ones who did nothing and a disgrace to humanity and deserve whatever punishment they get.
Yet.
I also hurt for those harmed by the riots. From business owners who may have lost years of sacrifice, and hard work. To the employees who had their livelihoods taken away so some folks could steal some TV's and booze. To the families who have had their access to groceries, medicine, public transportation, and other necessities ripped away from them.
Yet.
I also hurt for the police, firemen, state patrol, deputies, and national guardsmen who are risking life and limb to try to protect the innocent victims, while being assaulted and reviled.
Yet.
I pray for the ex cops. I pray that they will truly repent, turn to Jesus, and use the rest of their lives (incarcerated or not) for good.
It's not only possible, it's consistent with a Christian worldview to hold these thoughts simultaneously.
I read the speech. I agree with some parts, disagree with other parts, and agree with the identification of the problems but think the solutions chosen weren't effective.
I don't think it was crap. I do agree that the only route for empowering minorities is through economics and education.
Unfortunately, the MPLS city and Hennepin County governments as well as the school districts that cover urban MPLS haven't delivered on the promises made for the last 40+ years.
There's plenty of blame to go around here in the Twin Cities, but to try to cast it as "white conservative's oppressing black and brown folks" is simply not true.
I'm going to touch on a couple of other things to consider.
1. There is a significant Hmong and Karen population in (mostly) St Paul. These groups haven't fared nearly as badly as African Americans, I think it's reasonable to ask why. Also, why aren't these groups as affected by racism.
2. Although it's probably too early to tell, my sense (based on more than a decade of experience) is that our East African population will see significant economic gains over the next 5-10 years.
I have some theories about both of these groups and racism, but I wouldn't begin to assert that I've got answers. I think that it will be interesting to see how things go as what the data shows going forward. Personally, I think it has the makings of an interesting discussion.
"Would you like me to explain the King piece to you, Craig?"
THAT should be good for a few laughs!
"I'll be sure to let the world know that we have new successors to Dr King who know better what is good and right as it relates to the oppression of black people (which Marshal denies is even happening, it appears)."
Go ahead. You say all sorts of crap that isn't true. Black people AREN'T being "oppressed" these days. They are being lied to by people like you who don't know what they're talking about, and by race-hustlers among them who purposely distort to obtain and maintain power and status among them.
"I'll be sure to let black people know that you have a better answer for them and that they are just too damned stupid to understand what is best for them in terms of politics."
You'll be doing them a great service. While you're at it, tell all the other leftist lunkheads the same thing.
"Good Lord, have mercy..." ...on those of us who have to suffer fools like you, and on those black people who buy into the crap you're selling.
"What it seems like you fail to understand is that it is white oppression and white complacency and white ignoring the problems of racism are what led to these riots."
Bullshit.
"It is not the place for white folks, then, to now speak out, after centuries of being way too quiet, to condemn violence. It is not our place. It is not your place."
Bullshit. It is the place of every American to express condemnation for the criminal actions of rioters exploiting a death to rationalize their criminal behavior, as the consequences of that criminal behavior has a great negative impact on other Americans, black and white.
It is not your place to perpetuate lies. Stop doing it.
"What we CAN do, if we are allies to the black community, is be allies. Listen. Follow their lead. Raise concerns but do it in a way that follows their lead."
What we CAN do, if we care about our fellow Americans, is to oppose the bullshit people like you spread that serves to cement the division in this country between the races, and acknowledge truth regarding the so-called "plight" of the black community. Asshats like YOU, if you care about more than posturing as Christian without being one, is to acknowledge that not all black folk buy into the BLM lies and the excuses offered for rioting.
"Also, conservatives complain when the football players quietly and peacefully took a knee to protest. That was wrong, they said. You all said."
And conservatives were absolutely right that it was wrong. You won't listen to why. You just default to leftist bullshit and enable the bullshit Kaepernick spews. Here's a rich dude with the means to express himself in a manner that could make a difference (though it never can since his narrative is bullshit), but instead makes a nuisance of himself by showing disrespect for our flag and anthem.
"Conservatives endlessly mocked and condemned and abused Colin Kaepernick for his peaceful protest."
A bit overstated to say the least, but he was condemned for where and when he protested and for the fact that his protest was bullshit.
"Black lives still were treated like they didn't matter."
By black people, for sure. Not so much by anyone else but the occasional actual racist.
"Conservatives complained and mocked and belittled when people said black lives matter."
Because ALL lives matter...and black race-hustlers and their chump lefty, white-guilt liars (like you) complained and mocked and belittled conservatives for speaking that truth.
"And still the oppression and killing of black men continued."
By other black men far, far more than by anyone else.
"Brionna Taylor is dead.
Murdered by the police in her home while she slept."
NOT murdered, and if you really cared, you'd spell her name right. So you not only lie, but aren't concerned enough to honor the dead with knowing their names.
"I think the problem is, way too often, that the white privilege the so many of us live with makes us blind to the outrage and fear and anger that all these black murderers and black oppression are producing."
You're first mistake is thinking. You're clearly no good at it.
The second is presuming there's such a thing a "white privilege" simply because some leftist race-hustlers told you there is.
Third, you're the blind one, not the rest of us, who see these criminal outbursts for what they truly are.
Fourth...OH WAIT!!! I just realized you said "black murderers and black oppression"!! You're right. We don't need more black murderers and black oppressors. We don't need murderers and oppressors of ANY color.
"One small step that white conservatives can make is too loudly and publicly and clearly apologize for all the mocking they did of those who peacefully protested, they could apologize for mocking the black lives matter movement."
Kiss my ass. A far better step, better for everyone, especially the black community, would be for asshats like you to shut the hell up and stop helping the race-hustlers who further their bullshit narrative. Conservatives of all colors prefer truth.
"They can say, we were wrong."
But then they'd be lying, because we aren't wrong. The race-hustlers and their white-guilt sheep are wrong.
"We can't make peaceful protest difficult and not expect violent protest."
First, peaceful protest isn't difficult at all, and no one is preventing it. But even if we were, we can most definitely expect that no one will resort to violent criminal behavior and pretend they're legitimate protests of any kind. They're not. They're just rampaging criminals destroying and stealing. And you're an asshole for trying to excuse it as if it was something nobly provoked. If you were standing in front of me right now I'd slap you for your stupidity and deceit. You're damned right I expect people to act peacefully!! How pathetic that you prefer to appease the criminal! How typical!
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/
The above link demonstrates that blacks aren't the largest group of people shot by cops. What the link doesn't speak to is the circumstances in which any of those referenced were in that led to them being shot. This is the most important detail before any outrage over the death of someone by the police. We don't have all the details available to us regarding the Floyd situation. We don't have the gap between seeing him upright and led about by the cops and then seeing him on the ground under the knee of the cop. What happened in that gap and could it have had anything to do with why that action was taken by the cop? Until we know, until we can see the WHOLE event, there is NO ONE who is justified in insisting Floyd was murdered or that the cop acted with ill intent. They cop may indeed be a horse's ass. Hopefully we'll know soon, but until then, I can expect that we don't see a Rodney King replay where those pertinent details were not revealed to the general public...details that might have prevented the LA asshats from using the King situation as an excuse to riot like a bunch of punks.
Going forward, I want to see all mayors encourage their police chiefs to aggressively move on rioters at the first rock thrown. In this way, all will know that we do indeed expect people to remain peaceful in their protests. You know, NVA and all that crap. Fake Christian pacifists like you should be encouraging non-violent activism...not excusing criminal behavior.
Those confronted by police should likewise respond peacefully and respectfully and take any complaints to court after the fact, not act in a combative way as if you're dealing with the manifestation of race-hustling myth. Bad cops can't be provoked by good behavior. Cops aren't paid to take shit.
Craig,
I apologize for the language in my above comments. I'm tired of this fake-Christian punk dictating idiocy as if it's honorable and moral behavior. No more Mr. Nice Guy in the face of he and his troll's ongoing fraud and corruption.
Craig... " I do agree that the only route for empowering minorities is through economics and education."
But only if they survive into adulthood and aren't imprisoned, only if oppression and systematic racism doesn't continue to hold them down. And only if the economic opportunities and quality educational opportunities are afforded to them.
If we merely say, "Get an education and a good job! Good luck, black people!" but don't change the systems and racism that make those more difficult to come by, then it's like saying to the poor person at your door, "Good luck, be warm and well fed and at peace!" and offer no direct support alongside that poor person. And we know what that's worth.
Well wishes are not systemic changes.
Making changes that enable the poor to get an education,
that change police practices that lead to the killing and imprisonment of black people and poor people,
that makes it easier for poor and minorities to vote so that they enjoy that liberty (that was so long denied them, that led to being WAY under-represented even today),
that change prison and court rules that result in black and poor people being imprisoned at higher rates,
that change prison rules that result in less opportunity for change and education while in prison...
All of these policy changes are what's needed to help the poor and historically oppressed minorities to empower themselves. That's one place to begin.
Also, by not electing or supporting racist politicians like Trump who fan the flames of racism on a regular basis... by not normalizing his disturbing behavior that has such negative impact upon people of color, that would be a great help and something we can do something about THIS year.
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shootings-gun-violence-racial-bias-crime-data/595528/
https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2019-08-15/police-shootings-are-a-leading-cause-of-death-for-black-men
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/research/race_and_ethnicity/
Very pleased, I was able to find a Christian organization providing help to the victims of the rioting. A friend on Young Life staff was looking for diaper/etc donations because every place in N MPLS had been destroyed or closed. Also reaching out to a church in the affected neighborhood where I play sometimes to see what they’re doing. If anyone wants to help, I’ll figure out a way to facilitate that.
Dan,
Apparently you just have a compulsion to disagree, disagreeably. For you to take a one sentence AGREEMENT with MLK and turn it into something else entirely is asinine.
It’s almost as if your disagreeing with MLK just to spite me.
Of course it’s not simple, you moron. Of course the vastly more sub 21 year old “black folks” are killed by abortion and other “black folks” than anything else. We certainly wouldn’t want to ignore the data that suggests that intact nuclear families significantly drive achievement in education and lower the chances of poverty.
Yes, it’s a large multifaceted problem, it’s certainly not simplistic and it’s not one sided,
Don’t bitch about me not being willing to read the King speech, then get pissy when I do and when I agree with his primary point.
Art,
I haven’t read your comments and if you cross lines, I’ll edit.
Just watching the cleanup of the 50 buildings burned down last night, and preparing for the rioters to move further out to the suburbs.
They arrested at least the main cop, and have instituted a curfew, hopefully tonight will be better.
I scanned some stupidity about making peaceful protests hard, leading to violent protests. Obviously that’s stupid as we saw in MI recently and in MPLS last night. We literally had peaceful protesters, protected by police, in the midst of the carnage. To say that peaceful protest wasn’t allowed is simply absolutely bullshit.
I hate to say this, but Walz has finally grown a spine and starting to lead, because Frey has failed miserably. He should be recalled immediately.
Oh look, peaceful protesters, protesting peacefully.
What a load of crap.
It’s too bad they don’t give a crap about the victims.
I just saw a live shot in front of a pile of rubble that used to be an Ethiopian restaurant in St Paul. (For the geographically challenged that’s a different city then where George was killed, and where the oppressive white government is a black man.) It’s likely that this restaurant was owned by Ethiopian immigrants, those who excuse the rioters are basically telling the owners “F@@@ you. Your business is just collateral damage and we don’t give a shit.”.
“Person at Minneapolis BLM race riot makes it clear that this is revenge and that the worst is yet to come. "One of ours, two of yours," he shouts. "We comin' for ya'll n—! This is only the beginning, mother f—!" ”
This is the kind of black voice we should definitely be listening to.
Just finished reading a Twitter thread where a bunch of total idiots kept insisting that the cop has to be charged with 1st degree murder, despite multiple explanations that overcharging likely guarantees an acquittal.
This failure to understand that the goal of the prosecution is to build a case and charges that result in the highest probability of a guilty verdict.
Also, they can add or change the charges if additional evidence warrants .
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/prompted-by-calls-to-give-grace-to-cop-who-killed-george-floyd-black-activists-question-the-rush-to-forgive-223551931.html
It seems that "embracing grace" isn't going over well in the black community.
"This is the kind of black voice we should definitely be listening to."
Ya know, Craig...you're right. Those ARE the black voices we need to be hearing...just like we should be listening to the radical islamists who want us all dead.
I think that forgiveness is something that looks different depending on a lot of factors. While Jesus set the example for Christians, I’m not sure I’d expect the family to be prepared to forgive this soon, or ever. That’s between them and God. I think that anyone calling for someone else to forgive is out of line.
Having said that I do think that we should be praying for the ex cops. Definitely for them to repent and ask for forgiveness. For them to turn to Jesus and that they can use this experience to benefit others.
It should go without saying that we should pray for everyone close to the situation, family and friends, as well as everyone involved in the legal aspect of the case.
Clearly the rioters and agitators have no use or desire for grace, it’s more about revenge.
“You guys do realize it is very possible the group of protesters and the group of looters can be two completely separate groups of individuals right?
Actions of looters will not make me disavow my stand with the protesters.”
I don’t think any reasonable person is having a problem differentiating between the two groups. No one is criticizing the peaceful protesters, when they call out the rioters.
The curfew has been spectacularly unsuccessful and Frey hasn’t been seen or heard from. The fires have started.
Gas station set on fire, the FD can’t get to it, Hopefully the storage tanks don’t go up.
MPLS council member tweets that Walz pulled the national guard out after assuring everyone that the state was in charge. That’s been contradicted by someone else.
OK, we’ve now crossed the line into federal crimes after looting a post office.
What a freaking joke.
“Democrats win elections by telling people they’re victims. Democrats lose elections when people behave as they’ve been told.”
This black voice has got a damn good point
3 hours past curfew, fires, looting, general mayhem are happening.
What’s not happening? Our “leaders” are completely silent, the police have vanished, the national guard is missing in action.
If anyone in Minneapolis ever votes DFL again after this complete abdication of their primary job, then they deserve whatever happens. This is an absolute joke. Listening to the media trying to make things seem nonviolent when we can see the looting and the flames is simply media malpractice. Talk about fake news.
“My neighborhood, burning. Median income $33k. Many have no transit. Our pharmacies, banks, gas stations, restaurants are destroyed. The six closest grocery stores are looted. Our post office is on fire. The nearest gas station is on fire. No response from our city or state.”
This guy’s white, but I think he makes a good point and should be listened to also.
“ANTIFA - white, scrawny anarchists - are burning black communities to the ground and blaming it on Black Lived Matter.
When I say the Left hates black people, wow.”
Ok, he’s black so it’s time to listen again.
What a hellhole! And all because too many saw an opportunity to exploit one man's death for personal gain.
I was out in the area affected earlier and I want to give huge props to the people of the only race that matters (human), cleaning up after the rioters, and passing out supplies to the victims.
Listen...
https://www.mic.com/articles/97900/10-simple-rules-for-being-a-non-racist-white-person?utm_term=share&fbclid=IwAR0Wg4LFhR3-pnR5f5WvGmIl7QF34Bl1qw8l5owAoZgdkh_Kme8zU4lj62k
Oh, Dan’s ignored all the black voices I’ve mentioned here (along with plenty more), but now demands we listen to a black folk approved by him.
? Who says I ignored anything? I've read your quotes.
I don't know how much clearer I can be. Listen to all black voices. Listen.
Not just those who agree with your little white opinions and make you feel better about our real history of oppression and the real privilege that we white folks live with still. Listen to all black people.
There’s a narrative that all of the damage done since Monday is all the responsibility of outsiders and “white supremacists”.
A few thoughts.
1. I’ve seen too much video of black folks engaged in violence, looting, arson, and battery to buy the narrative as its being pushed.
2. Anarchy isn’t a white’s only philosophy.
3. There may be an element of these agitators, but the locals jumped right in, played along, and gave the agitators fertile ground.
4. Most people have been very clear about supporting the protesters no matter who they are, while condemning the rioters no matter who they are.
5. The abject failure of the leadership at the city and state level has absolutely nothing to do with where the rioters came from. Allowing the burning and looting for days, while the mayor and governor are nowhere to be seen has nothing to do with where the rioters came from.
6. The fact that the protesters expect the same people who’ve operated the city/county/state government in a way that has encouraged, incubated, and protected “systemic racism” for more than 40 years to get justice in this instance is just one more apparent contradiction.
7 We’re already seeing the “The system is rigged to get white cops off” theories. I’m sorry that the system you keep voting for is so “systemically racist”, and can hope that you’ll be more willing to explore alternatives.
More later.
3a. Last night was a great example, instead of obeying the curfew, the protesters were out in force. Thus giving the agitators cover, and people to agitate.
There’s been a constant stream of people (throwing church and state separation out the window), appealing to the protesters to get off of the streets by 8, leaving the agitators to be dealt with.
The question isn’t whether I’m listening to “all” black voices”, but whether or not you are.
The fact that you’ve not responded to many comments,!answered questions, or affirmed the value of listening to the black voices I’m providing, leaves only a few options. I’ve chosen to believe that you’ve ignored things rather than the less flattering possibilities.
It's hard to believe that Dan listens to anything that doesn't agree with his little white guild opinions given he never responds directly to any points made by those who don't. The following is an example, drawn from the goofy 10 simpleminded ways white people can step up to fight everyday racism.
First off, that title. "Everyday" racism? Who experiences racism everyday? Is that supposed to mean the racism is prevalent every day in a way that is felt by any given black person? Can I step up to any given black person and know I'll be supplied with a description of the racism that person experienced that day?..and the day before?..and the day before that? I doubt one can find too many black people that truly experience racism every week, much less every day. I'm guessing the Derrick Clifton means it's just so common something must be done and white people need to help. White people already help. Are black people stepping up to fight everyday racism by black people? Anyway...
"Learning about the history of racial oppression in America is an important step toward understanding why many people of color have a hard time trusting white people."
It's no secret. One would be hard pressed to find too many whites that haven't been fully informed about the history of racism in this country. The average American has been so inundated, in fact, that there is a palpable fear in many whites of being presumed to be racist. Most of these are milquetoast, white-guilt whites like Dan and feo. Indeed, it's really common knowledge at this point, though that doesn't explain why POCs would still have a hard time trusting whites. I'd say it has little to do compared to the indoctrination that whites are racist.
"Unfortunately, there isn't extensive education in American classrooms that examines racism throughout history."
Clifton is likely among those in the black community for whom it will never be "extensive" enough to satisfy them.
"For too long, whites have only heard about racism in the context of what not to do, but rarely, if ever, do white people hear about how they can be proactive about the issue."
Bullcrap. What more than "treat everyone equally" does anyone need to know?
"1. Listen when people of color talk about everyday racism and white privilege."
We have been. It's hard not to. Some won't shut up about it, seeing it everywhere whether it exists or not. It's a convenient excuse, in fact. "But more often than not, when blacks and people of color speak about racism," they're not being truthful, or worse, they don't know they're not being truthful. We hear this dearth of truth when claims are made of blacks being victimized because they're black. That's far more rare than too many blacks are willing to admit because the real reasons for their suffering are uncomfortable. It's not all that hard to look at a claim and compare it to the reality of the situation about which they complain. Most whites can tell when actual racism has occurred and when it hasn't...just as they can or should be able to.
"2. Honor the feelings of people of color in the discussion. It is not about your white guilt."
How about if we just deal in facts first, and then determine if the feelings are justified? One honors another best by dealing in truth, not feelings. Go ahead and express feelings, but make sure the provocations are true. That's not always the case. Too often it's not.
"Too often, white people overreact to criticism, become defensive and turn their feeling of uncomfortableness back on their peers."
That's only because too often, black people are dealing from preconceived notions, assuming racism is at the heart of their problem. So the criticism is unjust.
"3. Ask plenty of questions. Earnestly seek to understand people of color before trying to have your viewpoint understood."
This is a two-way street. But even so, POCs are often understood quite well (sound familiar?).
"It's OK to admit that you don't know how it feels to be racially profiled by cops,"
Most people have some experience with being profiled in some form or another. One needn't be racially profiled as well in order to relate to a black's experience with racial profiling in order to know or imagine how it feels. The very suggestion is absurd.
"surrounded by advertisements that reinforce Eurocentric beauty standards"
Boo-hoo.
"or be presumed unintelligent or inferior until proven otherwise — all because of the color of your skin."
This rarely happens. It is assumed by blacks as part of the indoctrination by their peers that it happens with any regularity at all.
"4. Educate yourself about racism as much as possible before asking people of color for help."
I know all I need to know. This is true of the vast majority of white people. Why wouldn't we? Because we're white? Sounds really racist to me.
"5. Challenge other white people in your life to think critically about racism — family, friends, coworkers, teachers and even public officials."
I will if blacks challenge blacks in the same way. Actually, I won't at all because I'm too busy encouraging people to treat people like people.
"6. Direct peers towards the perspectives of people of color. Becoming a "savior" is not cool."
I would, but that's racist. What's more, there are a lot of black people with bullshit perspectives. But I'm down with the "becoming a "savior" is not cool" part. Tiresome people like feo and Dan need to hear this part especially.
"7. Avoid conflating other oppressions with racism unless it's directly relevant to the conversation."
This one is especially bullshitty. Oppression is oppression. To pretend YOUR oppression is worse because it's yours is asinine. It's just an attempt to portray one's self as a greater victim in order to procure more attention and reparation.
"8. If you make a mistake, ask people of color how you can fix it."
"Dear Jesse Jackson, I used too much salt on my steak. How can I fix it?"
Clearly this is meant to grant authority to another to determine what constitutes a mistake. But how does one confirm that authority is properly granted? Do we just take the word of the black person? What if they're lying for personal advantage?
"9. Adopt intersectionality as an approach to all aspects of everyday life and start taking it seriously."
I'd much sooner adopt a flaming pile of fecal matter. Intersectionality is identity politics and actually IS a flaming pile of fecal matter. It has great appeal to total morons, though.
"10. Openly call out and reject any and all white privilege you witness or experience."
I would, but that would be racist. White privilege is a racist construct. Honest and honorable people don't pretend it's a thing.
There’s a narrative that’s very attractive to a lot of the people encouraging and support both the protesters and the rioters. The narrative is trying to suggest that virtually no one from MN is involved in the destruction. One local news station seems to be raising questions about that narrative. Like most of this, time will tell. However it’s probably worth not getting attached to any narrative at this point.
https://www.fox9.com/news/jail-records-show-most-arrested-in-minneapolis-riots-have-minnesota-addresses
Watching local news coverage, multiple stations confirming that the “All those arrested are not from MN.” narrative is not accurate.
First off, that title. "Everyday" racism? Who experiences racism everyday? Is that supposed to mean the racism is prevalent every day in a way that is felt by any given black person?
???
Do you truly not know the answer to these questions?
Black people experience racism or live with racism every day. Black men are regularly confronted with the choice, "There's a white young woman on the sidewalk in front of me... should I cross to the other side of the street so as to not make her nervous...?" Black parents regularly give "the talk" to their children. Especially to their sons.
Are you not familiar with "the talk..."?
Yes, black people experience or live with racism regularly to the point that it at least feels like every day. Because, for instance, EVEN IF they don't encounter a single thing on their drive to school or work, they STILL have to keep in the back of their heads the things they need to remember if they encounter a police officer, for instance.
Are you not aware of this reality for black people?
Marshal... Can I step up to any given black person and know I'll be supplied with a description of the racism that person experienced that day?..and the day before?..and the day before that? I doubt one can find too many black people that truly experience racism every week, much less every day.
THIS is why the author of that essay says, "Listen when people of color talk about everyday racism..." LISTEN, just what I've been telling you. When black people tell you that they live with racism every day, BELIEVE THEM. You have no basis on which to NOT believe them. You have not lived their lives in the context of their/our shared history. You've lived the white version of history, but you have not lived the black version. LISTEN.
And if "any given black person" you ask this question says No, they don't experience it every day, that's possibly their experience. BUT, it's also entirely possible that they just don't want to be the one to educate you or that they don't trust you sufficiently to get in that conversation with you. I mean, why would they? You can't even get past the first line of this essay without saying that the writer is lying.
Craig, tell me you are aware that black people live with racism on a regular/daily basis... Maybe Marshal will listen to you if he won't listen to this black author.
Marshal... This rarely happens. It is assumed by blacks as part of the indoctrination by their peers that it happens with any regularity at all.
Good Lord, I can't even make it through your ignorant and condescending comments, Marshal.
Craig, can you please set him straight? And if not, can you all please start educating yourselves. This is embarrassing. THIS is why black people ask allies like me to speak up to the ignorant whites who arrogantly assume they know the black experience sufficiently to let black people know that they are just wrong.
I can't even.
“However, a report by KARE 11 showed "about 86 percent" of the 36 arrests listed their address in Minnesota, and that they live in Minneapolis or the metro area, according to data the outlet analyzed from the Hennepin County Jail's roster. Five out-of-state cases came from Arkansas, Florida, Illinois, Michigan and Missouri, according to KARE 11.”
KARE 11 is the local NBC affiliate.
St Paul mayor just acknowledged that his information about where the arrested have come from was false.
Wonder if reality will support or debunk the narrative.
Walz was confronted with the fact that his 80% comment was BS, and is convinced that it’ll be right tomorrow.
Now says it doesn’t matter where they come from.
Jacob Frey just told the city he allegedly governs that they’ll be arrested if they try to protect themselves and their homes/neighborhoods, while acknowledging that the city can’t protect its citizens.
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Given the fact that we’ve just shut down a major metropolitan area, this seems worth considering.
“A security expert says intelligence reports indicate most of the hard-core protesters in Minneapolis are far-left or anarchists, and that far-right groups have not yet made a significant appearance.”
This from USA Today.
Curfew started, thousands of “peaceful protesters” staying in place. Great job guys, make it harder.
"Do you truly not know the answer to these questions?"
I absolutely know the answers to these questions. They're not the answers you like, nor are they based on fiction, myth, and false information.
"Black people experience racism or live with racism every day."
How do you know? Did you poll every black person in America? Do you not realize that some black people go days, if not weeks, without leaving their neighborhoods where only black people live? How do such people experience racism every day? We ALL live with racism to one degree or another. I've been a victim of racist attitudes by some black people where I work.
"Black men are regularly confronted with the choice, "There's a white young woman on the sidewalk in front of me... should I cross to the other side of the street so as to not make her nervous...?""
No they're not. A good number of them don't give such things a second thought. And those that spend most of their time in black neighborhoods aren't confronted with such choices.
"Are you not familiar with "the talk..."?"
Yes I am, and mostly it's crap that does little more than inculcate the child with an attitude that leads many of them to act in the very combative manner that will get them killed or arrested. While there may still exist pockets in this country where severe anti-black racism is a real threat to black people, they are few and far between. It's cool to warn kids that not all people will like them. I've done it with my kids. Only an asshat would pretend it matters why one's kids might encounter assholes. The motives of the asshole doesn't matter.
"Yes, black people experience or live with racism regularly to the point that it at least feels like every day."
Then it's a personal problem for which they should seek counseling. And I'm not being totally facetious when I say that. Since the first time I began to encounter black people with any regularity, there was always a percentage who defaulted to the, "You're just saying/doing that because I'm black." when being black had nothing whatever to do with it. For those who were serious in saying that sort of thing, they need help. The rest were doing it purposely to turn the situation around on the non-black person to take the heat off.
"EVEN IF they don't encounter a single thing on their drive to school or work, they STILL have to keep in the back of their heads the things they need to remember if they encounter a police officer, for instance."
Which are very much the same things anyone has to remember when encountering a cop, particularly if the reason for the encounter is due to some infraction of some law.
"Are you not aware of this reality for black people?"
I'm aware they claim that's the reality. I'm not aware that it's actually reality, and don't believe it is. I believe more often than not, that's what they were taught to believe reality is.
"When black people tell you that they live with racism every day, BELIEVE THEM."
No.
"You have no basis on which to NOT believe them."
Yes I do. It's called "reality". The reality is that in today's world, more and more white people go way the hell out of their way to avoid any actions or expression that might be taken as "racist". Then there are those of us who don't because we aren't freakin' racists, and if someone wants to accuse us...like you, feo and others...you're simply full of shit and are enabling bad behaviors...which you seem to do a lot.
"You have not lived their lives in the context of their/our shared history. You've lived the white version of history, but you have not lived the black version."
This is crap. There's only history. I'm aware of American history. I'm aware it includes a variety of assholes who abused others. I haven't lived that history, nor have most black people. There's no "my Polish grandparents fled the nazis" that has any impact on my own life. There's no black who is impacted by the slavery endured by their great-great-grandparents. It's a bullshit excuse for that which is more directly the consequence of their own actions...just as such is true of my own life.
"And if "any given black person" you ask this question says No, they don't experience it every day, that's possibly their experience."
Then you were lying when you said, "Black people experience racism or live with racism every day."
"BUT, it's also entirely possible that they just don't want to be the one to educate you or that they don't trust you sufficiently to get in that conversation with you."
How convenient. Ironically you're also saying that black people lie a lot. You're telling me that if they say, "no, I don't experience racism everyday", they're lying because they don't want to educate me, or don't trust me to get into that conversation? Why wouldn't they? Sounds racist. Any black person to whom I'd direct that question would have no reason not to trust me because I wouldn't ask just any dude on the street. Jeez, you're grasping!!
"You can't even get past the first line of this essay without saying that the writer is lying."
He may be, or he actually believes what isn't true...such as the falsehood that racism is a huge problem in this country.
"Craig, tell me you are aware that black people live with racism on a regular/daily basis... Maybe Marshal will listen to you if he won't listen to this black author."
So you're saying it will be more true if Craig says it than if you or this black author says it? Why would that be so?
"Craig, can you please set him straight?"
Dan, can you please go pound sand?
"THIS is why black people ask allies like me to speak up to the ignorant whites who arrogantly assume they know the black experience sufficiently to let black people know that they are just wrong."
You're not an ally. You're an enabler, and just as you enable homosexuals in their false beliefs, so too do you enable black people. I don't. I treat them as I treat anyone and respond to them as I respond to everyone...based on their behaviors and perceptions and how those manifest. I'm not concerned with black experience, white experience, hispanic experience. I concern myself with the human experience. Kinda what Scripture teaches me. If you were a Christian, you'd know and understand this.
Far too many black people ARE wrong with regards to racism and its impact on their lives. I know this because brilliant black people tell me so. I never needed them to, because it's all self-evident. I know racism when I see it, despite whether it comes from white people or black people. I know when people put their own sorry asses in dire straights, too. The latter is far more the problem than racism...especially throughout the last 50 years.
I'm not being totally facetious when I say that.
No, you're not being facetious. You're being racist, arrogant, presumptuous, ignorant, condescending and an embarrassment to good white people.
Come on, Craig. Step up. Do what conservatives need to do and call out such arrogant, condescending nonsense coming from white men like Marshal. Don't TELL me that you've got black friends. SHOW us that you're ready to call out racism and ignorance coming from your side.
Do the right thing, Craig.
"When black people tell you that they live with racism every day, BELIEVE THEM."
No.
Then go to hell. YOU are part of the legacy of racism, abuse, rape and slavery that white people have oppressed people of color with for centuries. Your time is over, cracker.
Craig, which side are you on?
WHEN BLACK PEOPLE TELL YOU ABOUT THE RACISM THEY LIVE WITH, BELIEVE THEM. Don't dismiss them like little children like you're their massah, like little white boy Marshal wants to do.
Your time is over, Marshal. The time of overt oppression and racism is done. If you can't live with that, get the hell out of the way or just go to hell.
Dan,
First of all listing to you as a white guy trying to tell other people how they should deal with racism strikes me as you being full of crap.
As to who’s side I’m on, I hope I’m on God’s side and I believe that John Perkins expresses the side I’m on as well as anyone. His position is that there is only one race, the human race. That’s where I try to live.
As I was listening to one of my other black friends this morning she pointed to Ephesians 6:15. So, I guess I’m on the side of acknowledging that we live in a world fraught with sin and that there is something more significant than blaming other people and looking for answers from politics.
I’m on the side that questions the sincerity those who, on Tuesday, praise the presence of white folks participating in the protests, while on Saturday use the presence of those same white folks as evidence of “white supremacy”.
I’m on the side where George Floyd has just as much value as Cody Holt, and that value has nothing to do with skin color, either of theirs or if there killers.
I’m on the side of having just as much concern for
I’m on the side of looking at people as individuals who’s value comes from the fact that we are created bearing the image of God. That our value derived from that, rather than our skin color.
On the political side, I’m not on the side of those who have held political power, presided over and furthered the “systemic racism”, yet expect people to buy into continuing to support them.
“See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone.” 1 Thessalonians 5:15
Such teaching is rooted in Jesus Christ, who “when he was reviled, did not revile in return; and when he suffered, did not threaten.” 1 Peter 2:23
I’m not sure how any Christian can ever support “repaying evil with evil”.
I guess following Jesus example of self sacrifice and his teaching about turning the other cheek get set aside when it’s politically inconvenient.
Listening to a press conference where the local CAIR representative is insisting that justice requires denying of constitutional rights and protections from those they deem unworthy.
“Jail ALL killer cops”
This sign is in the middle of the press conference tv shot.
Really?
Is justice “by any means necessary” really justice?
Is threatening violence really the way to get justice?
Back to the political side of this.
Just one more black voice that’ll be ignored by the left.
“This is a picture of Minneapolis, Minnesota's current mayor, Jacob Frey, in his HRC mansocks. This should come as a surprise to no one. Why? This is why:
Democrat Governor
Democrat Secretary of State
Democrat State Auditor.
Democrat Senior US Senator
Democrat Junior US Senator
Democrat Reps 5 / Republicans 3
Democrat Mayor
Democrat AG
Democrat Police Chief
2016 General Elections - voted Democrat/HRC
Minneapolis has elected 6 Democrat mayors in a row, dating back 41 years. Since the 40's Minneapolis has elected 14 mayors. 10 of them Democrats. (2 Independents, 2 Repubs)
Notice incidents like we're seeing today rarely take place in the supposedly racist south, which are the nation's most Republican states. It happened, of course, back when Democrats ruled the south, but they now rule the north. Minneapolis isn't in the south. Ferguson isn't in the south. Nor are Baltimore or Milwaukee, the locations of the last four race riots. All are in the north & all are controlled exclusively by Democrats.
Florida, South Carolina, Georgia & the rest of the red states of the south don't make headlines for stuff like this these days.
The #truth is that were racism is an issue is where Democrat & their policies dominate. Racism was prevalent when Democrats ruled the south...during slavery & Jim Crow. The south was Democrat then, is Republican now. The further the south gets from its racist roots of yesteryear the more Republican the south becomes. The more Democrat rule has dominated the north, the more racist incidents like this have cropped up there.
Don't hate me, #ProveMeWrong.
-dw“
So, got it. You agree with Marshal that these black people are lying or are too stupid to be able to understand that racism is all over with and there is no white privilege and if they'd just work harder for the Massah, things will all be sweet and dandy on the ol cotton fields.
You've chosen your sides.
Shame on you, both.
It seems that many of the people who were supportive when police arrested parents taking their kids to parks, have a problem with the police enforcing the curfew.
Dan,
When you ask why I’m not going to “prove” every single thing you ask for, look at this comment and you’ll understand.
Your comment shows. I indication that you read anything I wrote, and simply makes unfounded assumptions.
When you have such a tenuous grasp of the limited reality represented by a few blog comments, it raises questions about your continued assertions that you know “reality”.
I have to admit that I love it when you set aside your “violence is a sin” facade when it’s convenient.
Who’s side am I on? I’m on the side of the people who’ve been voluntarily (with absolutely no impetus from government) giving their time, money, and whatever they have to help the victims of the rioters. I’m not on the side that wants to provide excuses for their behavior.
Marshal JUST POSTED on your blog comments that denigrated and talked down to black people. He denies racism as a daily reality for black people and denies white privilege.
Do agree with his racist patronizing stupidly false attacks on black people or do you disagree?
That you are unable and unwilling to stand up to racist comments on your own blog is part of the problem.
You guys are part of the racist history and will soon just be a dried out dung heap on the garbage dump of history.
I was hoping you'd be ashamed to let your children and future generations see this sort of racist excrement on your own blog.
Shame on you.
1. Other than people who won’t play by the rules, I pretty much don’t delete anything. I’ve let plenty of your expletive filled rants stay posted. I guess your version of justice doesn’t apply equally.
2. I’ve been in communication with Art about his comment.
3. Your faux outrage provides you excellent cover for failing to engage with multiple comments and questions.
4. When Art responds directly to you, I often don’t read his comments. Much like the excuse you’ve used to justify all sorts of vile comments st your blog.
Re: "communication with art..."
What our black neighbors are saying they need is for us to speak out publicly against such racist and nonsense comments. They need to see that we're allies. They need white people to use their privilege to publicly speak out against other white people making racist comments.
This sort of racism needs to be publicly shamed so that, increasingly, they recognize the such racist comments are not welcome in public. That one has a right to say racist crap does not mean that you have to be a silent accomplice to it. Call it out publicly, if you're going to call it out.
Listen to what black people are telling you.
As I drove through MPLS yesterday, I noticed that many of the boarded up businesses were painted with BLM, or black owned business. I’m guessing that painting those things would ATTRACT “white supremacists” to their business. It seems strange that the black businesses would be helping the “white supremacists” target them?
Or they believed their own eyes, not the narrative.
Thank you ever so much for your white ass telling me what my black neighbors want. You seem confused, you instead that I shouldn’t be listening to white voices, yet your white voice keeps demanding that I listen and do your bidding. Please, keep speaking for “black folks” everywhere I’m sure they appreciate it.
Dan's response totally validates my opinion. In it, the suggestion is that because I don't fall in line behind him, I some sort of racist. That I MUST believe any black person who says anything without thoughtful consideration as to whether or not it is true, logical or supported by reality and known facts. This is the same as the #MeToo crap, that states we must believe all women. No. We are NOT so obliged. Listening is one thing. I've done that, and find it hard not to do that given the platform they have and the constant badgering by race-hustlers and stupid self-loathing, pantywaist, white-guilt chuckleheads like Dan and his troll. If my daughter says she was assaulted, I'm likely to believe she's not trying to bullshit me because she's trustworthy. But her trustworthiness doesn't mean what she said is true. It seems Dan believes I should regard all people...INCLUDING THOSE I DON'T KNOW PERSONALLY...as trustworthy because they're black or women claiming victimhood.
This is the thought behind my "NO" response to Dan's idiotic demand that I believe all black people who claim they live with racism every day. Aside from it being just not true, it requires that I maintain full confidence that every black person who says it recognizes true racism. Being black just doesn't make that so. I need more info because the claim is an accusation, for which one is innocent until proven guilty.
"No, you're not being facetious. You're being racist, arrogant, presumptuous, ignorant, condescending and an embarrassment to good white people."
Now you're just making false assertions based on your reaction to my responses, not because they support your assertion. You also make the lame implication that you are among those anyone would refer to as "good white people". You aren't. You're an idiot as I've proven over and over again.
I'm not a racist simply because you don't like my position. That charge requires just a bit more than your demand that unless I'm 100% like you, then I must be a racist. You clearly don't know what racism is.
I'm clearly not arrogant or ignorant for the same reasons. Having a better understanding of reality than you, and clearly proving it, doesn't make me arrogant and obviously not ignorant. YOU are a total embarrassment not only to white people, but to people in general and are a poor ally to black people if that's what you think you are. Enabling falsehood and excusing bad behavior isn't what good people of any race do.
"Then go to hell. YOU are part of the legacy of racism, abuse, rape and slavery that white people have oppressed people of color with for centuries."
No. That would be you, perhaps, but in no way is true of me. That's easy to see by actually reading my comments as if you were a Christian man devoted to truth and love. Find such a man and ask him.
The reality is that I'm part of that Christian brotherhood that treats all people the same, as fellow humans. See Craig's comment again from May 31, 2020 at 9:58 AM to understand what true Christianity looks like. I seek to emulate that.
I find it laughable to hear your whiny crap while also knowing that such things as intact families (mom and dad married for life), illegitimate births, and other indicators of quality of life, were far better BEFORE the civil rights era of the 60's than afterwards. That was a time when racism was far more prevalent and in the open. How could that possibly be? Now, in a time when most white people fear ever being considered racist that they'll abide stupid leftist policies that actually harm black people because they claim to be helpful, you want to pretend the misfortunes of blacks are the result of widespread, rampant racism. Bullshit.
"Don't dismiss them like little children like you're their massah, like little white boy Marshal wants to do."
Now you're just being a liar again. Nothing in my comments denotes I'm being dismissive. They're a clear indication that I insist upon truth, clarity and evidence and facts. NOT simply the word of someone I don't know who may have an agenda that serves no good purpose for anyone other than himself. The only "massah" existing now is the Democratic Party to whom you bow down as superior. So you can insult me all you want like the fake Christian you are, but bringing evidence will be far more damning if I' worthy of damning at all...which you haven't proven in the least.
"Your time is over, Marshal. The time of overt oppression and racism is done."
That's not at all "my" time, liar. My time is Christ's time, and you give it no mind whatsoever as you stand with destructive people. Overt oppression and racism will never be done because it's a manifestation of man's sin nature...just as is your irrational opposition to truth demonstrated by you now. As you do all the time, you think "love your fellow man" includes excusing and tolerating your fellow man's bad behaviors. The time for that crap will never be over, either, until He comes again. You enable that crap. I oppose it for the benefit of all.
"Marshal JUST POSTED on your blog comments that denigrated and talked down to black people."
You're a liar as any honest person who reads my comments can clearly see. Opposing falsehood and distortion is not denigrating anything but the falsehoods and distortions. It is idiot white "saviors of the black man" like you who talk down to black people by tolerating those falsehoods and distortions.
"He denies racism as a daily reality for black people and denies white privilege."
Because neither is true, as explained so well above.
"Do agree with his racist patronizing stupidly false attacks on black people...?"
Again, you're a liar. I made no such attack on anyone. Nor have you proven it simply be asserting such is true because I oppose the falsehoods and distortions that are part and parcel of the BLM narrative.
"That you are unable and unwilling to stand up to racist comments on your own blog is part of the problem."
It's pretty obvious that Craig's been standing up to your racist comments quite well. I haven't made any.
"You guys are part of the racist history and will soon just be a dried out dung heap on the garbage dump of history. "
What a wonderfully Christian, grace-embracing thing to say!! Which proves you're already a dried out dung heap on the garbage dump of race-hustling. Neither Craig nor I have anything to do with the nation's racist history, except that we both have a far better handle on it than you do.
"I was hoping you'd be ashamed to let your children and future generations see this sort of racist excrement on your own blog. "
Craig prefers to let your racist excrement remain so you can hang yourself with it.
"Shame on you."
The shame is all yours, Sparky. Yours and the race-hustlers you revere. If we bear any shame at all, it's for our inability to get through to morons like you and the victims of race-hustlers you suffer from your denial of truth and reality.
"What our black neighbors are saying they need is for us to speak out publicly against such racist and nonsense comments."
And clearly I've been speaking out against your racist nonsense throughout this entire thread.
"They need to see that we're allies. They need white people to use their privilege to publicly speak out against other white people making racist comments."
What they need is to cling to truth and reality and reject the crap spewed by race-hustlers and morons like you.
"Listen to what black people are telling you."
Again, I do all the time. Much of it is crap. Just because they're black, doesn't mean they get to say anything they want without what they say being subjected to honest scrutiny. It's what black people like Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Candace Owens, Larry Elder and Frederick Douglass tell me.
The only racist crap being spewed on this thread is that which comes from you. I have a higher hope for race relations than do you, which is clearly exposed by both my comments and yours. God help the black man who has you as an ally. He will surely live in suffering.
Art, I’ll agree with you on one thing. Simply because the person speaking is black (or any ethnicity), doesn’t mean they speak for all blacks or that their speech is automatically to be believed.
“White people at #JusticeForGeorgeFloyd protests. You are our guests. Your job is not to spray paint, break shit, loot. That is not your right. Your job is to do everything you can do to put your bodies between Black bodies because you know they’ll actually do something if you die“
“Black folk” who just wants whites to cover him while he riots or loots.
“Why didn't Obama/Biden, in eight years, do something about all of this "systemic racism"?”
Black voices to listen to.
“If the battle for civilization comes down to the wimps versus the barbarians, the barbarians are going to win.”
More black voices to listen to.
“Moms don’t let people make you feel like you are being inactive cuz you aren’t out on the front lines with a mask on tearing up shit.
Keep gardening.
Keep teaching the babies.
Keep birthing them at home and connecting them to the ancestral ways.
Keep healing with herbs and the earth.
Keep raising them to be renegades and revolutionaries.
Cuz they are the ones that have to grow up and run the world after this generation is done knocking over shit. And we don’t want to go backwards. We want to continue forward progress.
Keep yelling “fuck shit up” while you’re holding down the home front.
Keeping kids safe and creating a safe haven at home is apart of the revolution too.✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾“
Yeah, there’s no difference between the rioters and the protesters .
Here's how moral and rational conservatives act...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/31/politics/lincoln-project-new-ad-trump-race/index.html
Dan,
New rule here at the old blog. If you can’t provide an objective definition of moral or rational, you can no longer use those terms to characterize other people or they’re actions.
While liberals excuse, encourage, and post bail for the rioters.
That’s awesome. Now do Democrat’s that got support from Epstein.
Hell, I’d be willing to bet that every single politician who’s ever run for office has “supporters” who don’t meet some arbitrary litmus test.
But having politicians support ANTIFA, that’s cool, isn’t it?
Here's another grenade: On what basis must we accept that George Floyd deserves "justice"? The word suggests that something was done to him. For most people, that means Chauvin kneeling on his neck caused Floyd to die. A preliminary report from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner states there was no evidence of strangulation and traumatic asphyxiation. Naturally, the protests are compelled by the belief that Chauvin caused his death by his kneeling on Floyd's neck and at this point, there's official rebuttal of that belief. If the full examination, as well as the autopsy the family insists it will obtain, confirm that preliminary finding, what then? Is a call for justice still appropriate if the death was not related to the technique to which everyone attributes Floyd's death? His breathing issues could have been a sign of a heart attack. As such, it may still mean the cop was culpable in not addressing his complaints, but I would imagine that most cops hear such complaints during an arrest that requires more force than would be necessary with a compliant suspect.
I just saw a newer video that shows them struggling in some fashion with Floyd in the squad car. You can't see Floyd, but clearly a struggle is happening. Was he resisting? If he was resisting, could it have brought on a heart attack, heralded by the breathing issues?
The point is that which I mentioned at the beginning, and I can't believe I'm the only one mature enough to grasp it: Say nothing...PROTEST NOTHING...until the facts are in. Some look at the technique and protest without knowing what led to the use of it and why the cop felt it was necessary (forbidden or not). Some look at a white cop (or just a cop) on a black dude and pretend it's evidence of police brutality or racism (or both) without knowing what led to the use of the technique and why the cop felt it was necessary. It's a serious, serious thing and pretending one knows all the minutiae of event, going only by snippets of video which don't tell the whole story. That story may be exactly what it appears to be. But now, it only appears to be. I can wait for all the facts before I loot my local liquor store.
Again Dan demonstrates no understanding of conservatism. It doesn't appear anyone in the Lincoln Project ever supported or promoted a truly conservative candidate ever. They're a joke, established just to express their Trump-hatred. Many call themselves Republicans. Not all Republicans are truly conservative. If Dan understood conservatism, he wouldn't get the tingles over the Lincoln Project.
https://townhall.com/columnists/bradslager/2020/05/12/never-trumpers-lincoln-project-n2568653
Craig... If you can’t provide an objective definition of moral or rational, you can no longer use those terms to characterize other people or they’re actions.
? I can give THE DEFINITION of moral...
Moral (MW):
a: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical moral judgments
b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior a moral poem
c : conforming to a standard of right behavior
That is OBJECTIVELY the definition of moral found in MW. Likewise, rational...
Rational (MW):
a : having reason or understanding
b : relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason
Those are objectively the definitions of moral and rational.
Is that what you're wanting? Done and done.
And just to be clear...
Objective (MW)
a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by
personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations
Thus, the definitions I provided are objectively the definitions of those words, without regard to personal feelings or interpretations.
I'm guessing you want something else, but if so, you'll have to clarify.
Dr King, with more words of wisdom...
"You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city's white power structure left the Negro community with no alternative..."
From his Letter from a Birmingham Jail.
But still, let's let Marshal, Craig and other crackers speak for black people and tell the ones who dare to think racism is still a problem to shut the hell up. That's rational.
“Speaking of “institutional” racism, the Minneapolis chief of police is Mexican American/black; the district’s U.S House representative is black; the vice president of city Council is black; and the state Attorney General is black. Apart from that...”
Black Voices Matter
It looks like we are up to around 400 units of affordable housing burned to the ground in MPLS. Additionally a Habitat for Humanity house was looted last night. I separate the Habitat house because in MPLS, signage requirements during construction mean that the looters knew what it was, and who was going to benefit, and went ahead.
Literally everyone agrees that home ownership is one of the most vital ingredients in helping poor families build wealth.
But, it’s all about justice, right?
I listened to an ex NFL player talk about protecting his wife’s business from damage with some armed friends of his. Unfortunately, he was clear that his concern didn’t extend to the businesses adjacent to his wife’s.
But, that’s justice, right?
Art,
I've seen the preliminary report you reference, and haven't mentioned it for several reasons.
1. The protesters have and will disregard any coroner's report because they claim that the entire justice system of MPLS and Hennepin county are corrupt and can't be trusted.
2. The family is reported to be bringing in a celebrity forensic specialist. I think that it's probably best to wait for the final HC ME report, and for the celebrity ME report. If the two reports match then, the protesters will face a problem with their narrative. Unfortunately, I think this is one where no amount of science and objective evidence will change their narrative.
3. I'm sympathetic to the point I've heard that goes, "Even if the cause of death wasn't strangulation, the refusal to let up and acknowledge his requests for air, still place the responsibility for death on the cops. The reality is that the knee to the back/neck restraint has been banned from MPD since someone else died a few years ago. Chauvin should not have been using the technique, and had he followed correct procedure Floyd would have been moved to a sitting position long before his situation became critical.
4. I've seen that footage of a struggle, and the 911 caller (almost certainly a POC, most likely black), was clear that Floyd was being less than cooperative. Even with all of that Chauvin was clearly not using proper protocol during this restraint. Further, it would have requires virtually zero effort to have one other cop standing by with a Taser as a precaution had Floyd resisted when the knee was removed.
I want to be clear. just because one side is jumping to conclusions and acting on incomplete information, doesn't mean it's appropriate to do the same.
"Is that what you're wanting? Done and done."
I see what you've done, played a semantic game. It's cute and all, but as you noted, it's not what I was asking. It's more of a semantic dodge. that's fine, just don't be surprised when future comments asserting things to be moral or immoral are not posted or edited. You had your chance, you chose to dodge and play games, and I'm fine with that. Just don't bitch and whine when your actions have consequences.
"But still, let's let Marshal, Craig and other crackers speak for black people and tell the ones who dare to think racism is still a problem to shut the hell up. That's rational."
I've always thought that lies and falsehoods are by their very nature, irrational. I guess that it's rational (on some primitive level) to be so committed to a narrative that lying to try to gain a rhetorical advantage does seem to be a rational course. Of course, it's not moral.
More in the ongoing series of black voices that might be foreign to Dan.
“Justice, at all costs, is not justice.”
“For every 10,000 black people arrested for violent crime, 3 are killed
For every 10,000 white people arrested for violent crime, 4 are killed
I'm going to keep tweeting this until someone can explain to me how this is possible if there is truly pervasive racial bias in policing”
Leonydus Johnson
Black Voices Matter
Sources:
2017 FBI UCR:
ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u…
2018 FBI UCR:
ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u…
2017 Police Shootings:
washingtonpost.com/graphics/natio…
2018 Police Shootings:
washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/…
“If you are a black business owner who’s business has been negatively impacted by recent riots within your city, please DM me.
RT!”
BVM
“I'm going to buy an AR-15”
Sharika Shoal
BVM
Art,
This is still somewhat unconfirmed, but it makes my earlier point.
Of course the fact that this seemingly corrupt, racist system has been elected and protected for 40+ years raises other questions. Seems like significant failures of state/county leadership and voters being sold a bill of goods they didn’t get.
“BREAKING: George Floyd died due to asphyxia from neck & back compression that led to a lack of blood flow to the brain, according to an independent autopsy done by 2 pathologists' who ruled manner of death: homicide.
Minneapolis officials have said Floyd didn't die from asphyxia.“
I heard something today that I believe has some merit.
The suggestion was to decertify the police union, fire everybody, and start over.
Obviously there are problems with implementation of this, primarily the lack of LE personnel for a period of time. Based on the fact that the head of the police union, is part of the problem it’s probably the only way to get rid of him. I think it’s safe to say that many, if not most of the current officers would be reinstated, while some won’t. It’ll cost some money, but it’s certainly worth considering.
The biggest concern is the fact that the power structure that has put this system in place, is the same power structure that has failed to do anything about the PD for decades.
I saw a friend of mine posted a picture on IG of her passing out water to the people cleaning up. I’m thrilled that she’s done that, but the fact that there wasn’t anyone in the picture other than her, gave me pause. Pause to realize that I see a lot of white faces doing a lot of great things to help. I’m just wondering if we really need to see all these pictures. I’m wondering if there’s too much focus on the white folks helping.
When I’ve been in Haiti, our group ha been very intentional about trying not to focus on the blancs.
I think that, in general, not focusing on the blancs is a good idea.
“To my white brothers and sisters in the Lord: I do not carry on my back the burden of “hundreds of years” of slavery. In fact, my ancestors were slave OWNERS. I am asking you, in the spirit of Ephesians 4:15, to please stop treating black people as a tribe. Each of us is unique.”
Darrell Harrison
BVM
“As a black American man, one can clearly see that the liberal MSM make it point to put the camera on IDIOTS because they want THEM to represent us. For every clown that’s trying to loot a 40” tv, there’s a black man like ME chillin at home strategizing for a better future”
James (that’s the only twitter handle)
BVM
“If you think I’m “racist” for creating a fundraising campaign geared towards looted black businesses - that shows black people conservatives give far more of a damn about them than the Left ever has - I want you to look up the term “racist”.
Goodbye.”
CJ Pearson
BVM
Regarding the pictures of white people comment. There could be some really positive effects for me and my business for me to put pictures of myself doing good things. But it just feels really wrong.
““Instead of standing there and teaching a cop when there’s an unarmed person coming at ’em with a knife or something to shoot ’em in the leg instead of the heart is a very different thing,” Biden said, according to The Recount.”
Wisdom from JB. He’s going to fix institutionalized racism, because not doing anything about if fir 8 years as VP, or decades in the senate.
I only mentioned the preliminary report to illustrate the problem of protesting/criticizing before all the facts are known. It also was meant to address the "justice for George" question, which without those facts was an assumption about the cause of death. To die in police custody doesn't guarantee the cops are at fault. That was my point. Fault is assumed under the "blacks are targeted/police brutality" narrative that isn't concerned with facts as much as pushing the narrative.
Understood, I’m not arguing, just (apparently) buttressing your point with the update. Apparently the family ME also reported the same thing.
Just read an article that speaks to the exam by the family's choices. The first couple dozen comments or more were all confused as to the "good health" comment the ME stated while also saying Floyd suffered from "hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use".
A couple of the comments:
"In good health...except for the fentanyl and meth and heart disease."
"They herald that Baden was the chief medical examiner in NYC but don't mention that he was fired from that position in 1979 after about a year because of so many complaints. His next job, fired from that. He testified on behalf of Phil Spector in his murder trial (of which Baden's wife was specter's attorney) and his most recent claim to fame was with saying Jeffrey Epstein did NOT commit suicide. I wonder how much he was paid for his autopsy results on George Floyd?"
Now, of course, when this whole thing goes to trial, there will be great time spent on the conflicting reports, as well as the conflicting statement within this one. Perfect.
I don’t think it’ll make much difference in the criminal trial, but it might in the wrongful death suit.
“Not all cops are bad. Nor all white people.
Black folks - we can’t condemn profiling then turn it around and do it ourselves.”
CJ Pearson
BVM
“I just wanna let democrats know that they are the reason why I'm a Trump supporter. All their tantrums and panic over Trump made me curious as to why he was the next Hitler. Turns out after doing my own research and common sense, they were the racists, socialists and sore loosers”
McKayla J
BVM
“I'm ashamed to admit this but I never owned a gun. I've always respected and supported the right to have one but I had a huge fear of them. After these leftist antics and feeling completely unprotected and scared. I have suppressed my fear and will be purchasing one very soon.“
McKayla J
BVM
“The conservative movement is a movement of love.
Off a whim, I started a fundraising campaign to benefit the black owned businesses that far-left radicals burned to the ground.
We’re ending the day with more than $50k raised.
I could’ve SWORN they said we were racists, ha.”
CJ Pearson
BVM
"I don’t think it’ll make much difference in the criminal trial..."
How could it not? If the death wasn't caused by kneeling on his neck, how can he be found guilty of murder?
I think the official ruling of homocide plus the video will likely be enough. Plus the jury won’t want to burn the city down.
Shocking. Trump endorses virtually the same method as Walz did, (flood the riot torn areas with national guard and LE while systematically enforcing a curfew) and all the libs up here are pissed.
“Assume there's a vaccine against white racism. Would 70% of black kids STILL be raised in fatherless homes? Would 50% of blacks STILL dropout of many urban hi schools? Would 25% of young black urban men STILL have criminal records? Would blacks STILL kill 7000 blacks every yr?”
BVM
Your last is the type of conversation in which BLMers and their whiny white lefty apologists refuse to engage. Yet, it's the one that most matters.
BTW, are these black voices you're presenting off of Twitter?
Two things that point to systemic racism in your responses, Craig.
1. I point to King and others who tell you to listen to all black voices. You respond with a barrage of only conservative black voices that agree with you, or black voices espousing conservative policies you agree with. By denying and hiding and covering up the voices of the vast majority of Black Folk, you are supporting racist attitudes and the erasure of black voices. You may not be doing it on purpose, it's part of the systemic and pervasive problem with racism that white people don't realize what they're doing. But you're doing it.
Again, where are your mainstream and progressive black voices in your quotes? Erased.
You want to silence the majority while clinging to only those who agree with you and your opinions.
Listen to all black voices. Stop erasing their voices on your blog.
2. You keep suggesting that black people are stupid for voting for Democrats because of all the problems they're having. You ignore that the reality is that black people don't vote for conservatives and conservative policies by vast margins because they recognize those policies are worse than Democrats. By hiding the conservative policies that are harmful to black people and suggesting that the Democrats are the problem, when the conservatives have much much worse policies, according to the majority of black people, you are erasing black voices and being patronizing and condescending towards the majority of black people. Again, this is part of the systemic racism of white people.
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