Is it possible for a white person to harm a person of color (including but not limited to; killing, shooting, stabbing, beating, kicking, robbing, etc.) without doing so because of racism?
1. The person of color might be a total jerk who initiated the conflict.
2. The white person might be just a crook looking to rob the person of color in order to enrich himself...and the person of color represented to him the most ideal target.
3. The white person might be mentally deranged and the person of color was the closest person to the white nutcase when the nutcase snapped.
4. The white person might have acted negligently without malicious intent and the unfortunate collateral damage of that negligence was a person of color.
Why, it's even possible for a person of color to harm a white person without racism as the motivation!!
So, what I'm hearing from y'all is that without specific evidence of racial motivation, it's probably not wise to make judgements that presume racial motivation.
I'm curious about the recent case in GA. I haven't seen any direct evidence that this was racially motivated. I'm not suggesting that it wasn't, but it seems like the racial aspect is more assumed than proven,
Of course, the situation is tragic enough regardless of motivation. There doesn't seem to be anything that justifies the actions of the people who instigated the confrontation. Certainly there doesn't seem to be any reason for things to have escalated to deadly force.
As happens so often, we don't have enough information to really accurately have an accurate picture of what happened and what their motivations were.
There are two Stephan Molyneux videos that address this story with details I haven't seen elsewhere (though I admit I haven't taken the time to look). I was directed by reading comments after a black conservative woman's column (Kira Davis) at RedState. While I didn't believe it was proper to regard Arbery's death as a murder, it seems some want to believe it based on the video...the same video I saw from which I concluded it wasn't proper to call it murder. Certainly different states classify homicides differently, with different degrees of guilt, etc. But knowing the details is extremely important, and there are few from the video other than what is seen.
Absolutely there are liberties taken by people who wish to again unjustifiably assume racism. To me, this seemed from the beginning another case of a black dude dying...not because a white guy had a gun...which in this case was perfectly legal...but because the black guy made some really stupid decisions which resulted in his own demise.
Watch the Molyneux videos. I typed his name at YouTube and they came up immediately without further detail. One is about 45 minutes and the second about 30. Both are reasoned and full of details.
I've not been following this closely, especially as the two have been charged. Once that happens, there will likely be few new details until the trial. But in all of this I haven't seen anyone who's really offered anything besides (two or three southern white guys kill a black guy, therefore it must be racist and we can't conceive of any other possibility), so it's difficult to get an accurate sense of what happened.
Obviously, this interaction should not have resulted in anyone's death. There is absolutely no reason I can see why there was any reason to do anything besides stay in the vehicles and wait or follow until the police arrive. Just as obviously the way this has been handled up to this point has raised red flags, and that aspect of this should be studied and people should be held accountable for mistakes.
I will say that since there has been a lack of high profile incidents of white people shooting black people for people to hype up, it's almost like this one has been jumped on because of the scarcity rather than the incident itself. Because dozens of murders in Chicago will never get as much hype as this one (seemingly isolated) incident.
Ultimately, the reporting and narrative on this (calling it a lynching for example) have so quickly gone to political narratives that teasing out the actual facts has become difficult.
I just came upon the following video from a former cop explaining the situation with more details. The Molyneux vids are even more detailed, but this one provides far more than any article about the shooting that I've seen. It seems there are far too many that really, really, really want a white on black racist murder to have happened in order to justify however they intend to scream about it.
I also want to point out that we're seeing yet again what I think is a purposeful, intentional decision to influence public opinion about the case by showing "nice" pictures of Arbery, while showing mug shots of the McMichaels as well as a pic that seems to portray them as a couple of Georgia crackers. There is a pic available of Arbery that is a mugshot where he doesn't look like such a sweetheart...similar to the punk pics of Trayvon Martin that were never presented by the media while they were pretending he was stalked by a racist.
My point exactly. This is tailor made to be turned into something to advance an agenda, regardless of the facts. Call me crazy, but I'd rather get a handle of the facts, before I go crazy with conclusions.
The only conclusions I feel comfortable with are that Arbery didn't need to die, and there was no reason for the other guys to have gotten out of their trucks.
Perhaps you haven't taken the time to view the Molyneux vids. Having done so, the only point of agreement is that Arbery didn't need to die, but that he brought it upon himself. His death is ENTIRELY on himself. The other guys had just cause to get out of their truck as well as to film it.
Georgia law allows for citizen arrest and chasing, apprehending and restraining suspects until police arrive. It allows for arming one's self in open carry (including long rifles without a license). Arbery was NOT jogging, but running away from the house he had no business entering...a house he'd entered without permission multiple times since October. Greg McMichael was quite familiar with Arbery from a previous incident while McMichael was still employed in law enforcement.
It was absolutely necessary to get out of the truck, lawful and logical as well given the circumstances, for there's no way to apprehend and restrain without doing so. And given the manner in which Arbery acted, as well as the absolutely stupid and race-hustling responses to the incident by celebrity idiots and other idiots, it's a damned good thing they DID film it, as it would have been so much easier for the idiots to pretend the dude was indeed hunted down by racists.
I haven't seen the video, and definitely agree that no one had to die. Yet. if GM had been in LE, then it stands to reason that he would have handled this better.
I think the difference is that I'm not willing to jump to conclusions at this point. I do believe that there was no reason for them to exit their vehicles and restrain Arbery, if they had called the police, all they needed to do was to follow/monitor him and allow the police to apprehend him. Even if a citizens arrest is legal under GA law, I'm not seeing how it was justified under these circumstances. Especially of Arbery was already known to LE.
My concern at this point is whether if not the racism/lynching narrative is supported by the evidence. So far I've seen nothing to indicate that, although if you watch the media you'd think they were wearing sheets and pointy hats.
Could Darren Wilson have handled the Michael Brown situation better? Could George Zimmerman have handled the Trayvon Martin situation better? Could Daniel Pantaleo have handled the Eric Garner situation better? To all four situations anyone could answer "yes". The problem is that it is a "20/20 hindsight" response. It's very easy to second guess when we're not the people going through the struggle at the time.
Now, it should be understood at this point that I did not jump to conclusions, either, and warned against doing so. Since, I've come across these videos that have supplied more details that justify the actions taken by the McMichaels. Since Greg McM was former law enforcement, and since Darren Wilson and Daniel Pantaleo were current LE at the time of their incidents, it's quite clear that being in LE makes no difference to apprehending and restraining a suspect. It could go south regardless. What matters is whether or not the death was justifiable or excusable in any way. As I said, and as was true in the other three cases I mentioned, the death of the suspect was totally the result of the suspect's actions, NOT those of the cop or neighborhood watch representative. Unless we have a clear case of abuse of power, the stats show that the vast majority of such deaths are the result of the suspect's actions and I would lean toward that as the likely reason a death took place despite my choosing to await full details.
No, there is no evidence that racism is supported by any evidence. It is simply the first choice of possibilities by race-hustlers in the media, the celebrity world and self-loathing, white-guilt trolls on blogs.
I guess I'd say that any time someone dies needlessly, that the situation could have been handled better.
In this case, I'm simply arguing that someone who is former LE should be in a better position to make good decisions. There is absolutely no reason why they wouldn't have followed and waited for LE to apprehend. If they truly were familiar with Arbery from previous encounters than there is really nothing that he has done that demanded immediate apprehension from non LE.
I suspect that we'll get more information as this goes along and thus a better understanding of the dynamics. I'm less concerned with that in the short term than I am with the racism narrative that is dominant right now.
"I guess I'd say that any time someone dies needlessly, that the situation could have been handled better."
This is true, but in this and the three cases I mentioned above, it could have and should have been handled better by the deceased, whose actions led to their own demise. Frankly, by your logic, every shooting of a suspect was needless and could have been handled better, but again, by the suspect himself. Rarely is the intention to kill the suspect, apprehension is the prime directive, as it were. No one dealing with a suspect is obliged to sacrifice himself for the sake of the suspect.
So in this case, I'm simply arguing that for the vast majority of shootings, law enforcement is not culpable for the deaths of suspects...the suspects are. Hindsight does not lend itself well to your position as it doesn't take into account the heat of the moment snap judgements LEO's must make in order to complete their task while preserving their own lives.
We may indeed get more info about this case before it's all said and done, but I suspect what is already known (and presented in the videos to which I've linked) is enough to acquit the McMichaels of wrongdoing and responsibility in the death of Arbery.
As to your main concern, yesterday I watched a completely absurd video made by this 34-year old white guy who, if I recall correctly, is some sort of ex-minister. He's recording himself on his cell phone jogging down the streets of his own neighborhood carrying a TV on his shoulder asking why the cops aren't chasing him or why his fellow citizens aren't calling the police. Somehow this idiot expects to be taken seriously as he thinks the reason is because he's white. I wondered if this idiot was related to, or possibly is, feo...it's just that stupid. And it fully illustrates your point. Idiots, race-hustlers and liars pretending every shooting of a black person by white people proves racism against the black race. Sad and pathetic.
15 comments:
Yes! Just like a black person can do the same to a white person without it being racism.
Of course.
1. The person of color might be a total jerk who initiated the conflict.
2. The white person might be just a crook looking to rob the person of color in order to enrich himself...and the person of color represented to him the most ideal target.
3. The white person might be mentally deranged and the person of color was the closest person to the white nutcase when the nutcase snapped.
4. The white person might have acted negligently without malicious intent and the unfortunate collateral damage of that negligence was a person of color.
Why, it's even possible for a person of color to harm a white person without racism as the motivation!!
So, what I'm hearing from y'all is that without specific evidence of racial motivation, it's probably not wise to make judgements that presume racial motivation.
That's about it, Craig. Do you have a specific incident in mind?
I'm curious about the recent case in GA. I haven't seen any direct evidence that this was racially motivated. I'm not suggesting that it wasn't, but it seems like the racial aspect is more assumed than proven,
Of course, the situation is tragic enough regardless of motivation. There doesn't seem to be anything that justifies the actions of the people who instigated the confrontation. Certainly there doesn't seem to be any reason for things to have escalated to deadly force.
As happens so often, we don't have enough information to really accurately have an accurate picture of what happened and what their motivations were.
There are two Stephan Molyneux videos that address this story with details I haven't seen elsewhere (though I admit I haven't taken the time to look). I was directed by reading comments after a black conservative woman's column (Kira Davis) at RedState. While I didn't believe it was proper to regard Arbery's death as a murder, it seems some want to believe it based on the video...the same video I saw from which I concluded it wasn't proper to call it murder. Certainly different states classify homicides differently, with different degrees of guilt, etc. But knowing the details is extremely important, and there are few from the video other than what is seen.
Absolutely there are liberties taken by people who wish to again unjustifiably assume racism. To me, this seemed from the beginning another case of a black dude dying...not because a white guy had a gun...which in this case was perfectly legal...but because the black guy made some really stupid decisions which resulted in his own demise.
Watch the Molyneux videos. I typed his name at YouTube and they came up immediately without further detail. One is about 45 minutes and the second about 30. Both are reasoned and full of details.
I've not been following this closely, especially as the two have been charged. Once that happens, there will likely be few new details until the trial. But in all of this I haven't seen anyone who's really offered anything besides (two or three southern white guys kill a black guy, therefore it must be racist and we can't conceive of any other possibility), so it's difficult to get an accurate sense of what happened.
Obviously, this interaction should not have resulted in anyone's death. There is absolutely no reason I can see why there was any reason to do anything besides stay in the vehicles and wait or follow until the police arrive. Just as obviously the way this has been handled up to this point has raised red flags, and that aspect of this should be studied and people should be held accountable for mistakes.
I will say that since there has been a lack of high profile incidents of white people shooting black people for people to hype up, it's almost like this one has been jumped on because of the scarcity rather than the incident itself. Because dozens of murders in Chicago will never get as much hype as this one (seemingly isolated) incident.
Ultimately, the reporting and narrative on this (calling it a lynching for example) have so quickly gone to political narratives that teasing out the actual facts has become difficult.
I just came upon the following video from a former cop explaining the situation with more details. The Molyneux vids are even more detailed, but this one provides far more than any article about the shooting that I've seen. It seems there are far too many that really, really, really want a white on black racist murder to have happened in order to justify however they intend to scream about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjCzJyFKoqo&fbclid=IwAR2KUfL6t7jZNXxxh7qZ7DJkyKLnbd1FRWx6MYJa-8_Nva5IoRWYtXBsO1E
I also want to point out that we're seeing yet again what I think is a purposeful, intentional decision to influence public opinion about the case by showing "nice" pictures of Arbery, while showing mug shots of the McMichaels as well as a pic that seems to portray them as a couple of Georgia crackers. There is a pic available of Arbery that is a mugshot where he doesn't look like such a sweetheart...similar to the punk pics of Trayvon Martin that were never presented by the media while they were pretending he was stalked by a racist.
My point exactly. This is tailor made to be turned into something to advance an agenda, regardless of the facts. Call me crazy, but I'd rather get a handle of the facts, before I go crazy with conclusions.
The only conclusions I feel comfortable with are that Arbery didn't need to die, and there was no reason for the other guys to have gotten out of their trucks.
Oh, and they're morons for filming it.
Perhaps you haven't taken the time to view the Molyneux vids. Having done so, the only point of agreement is that Arbery didn't need to die, but that he brought it upon himself. His death is ENTIRELY on himself. The other guys had just cause to get out of their truck as well as to film it.
Georgia law allows for citizen arrest and chasing, apprehending and restraining suspects until police arrive. It allows for arming one's self in open carry (including long rifles without a license). Arbery was NOT jogging, but running away from the house he had no business entering...a house he'd entered without permission multiple times since October. Greg McMichael was quite familiar with Arbery from a previous incident while McMichael was still employed in law enforcement.
It was absolutely necessary to get out of the truck, lawful and logical as well given the circumstances, for there's no way to apprehend and restrain without doing so. And given the manner in which Arbery acted, as well as the absolutely stupid and race-hustling responses to the incident by celebrity idiots and other idiots, it's a damned good thing they DID film it, as it would have been so much easier for the idiots to pretend the dude was indeed hunted down by racists.
Again, I encourage you to view the videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcB6l3r0E04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrfTi1RbDf0
Art,
I haven't seen the video, and definitely agree that no one had to die. Yet. if GM had been in LE, then it stands to reason that he would have handled this better.
I think the difference is that I'm not willing to jump to conclusions at this point. I do believe that there was no reason for them to exit their vehicles and restrain Arbery, if they had called the police, all they needed to do was to follow/monitor him and allow the police to apprehend him. Even if a citizens arrest is legal under GA law, I'm not seeing how it was justified under these circumstances. Especially of Arbery was already known to LE.
My concern at this point is whether if not the racism/lynching narrative is supported by the evidence. So far I've seen nothing to indicate that, although if you watch the media you'd think they were wearing sheets and pointy hats.
Could Darren Wilson have handled the Michael Brown situation better? Could George Zimmerman have handled the Trayvon Martin situation better? Could Daniel Pantaleo have handled the Eric Garner situation better? To all four situations anyone could answer "yes". The problem is that it is a "20/20 hindsight" response. It's very easy to second guess when we're not the people going through the struggle at the time.
Now, it should be understood at this point that I did not jump to conclusions, either, and warned against doing so. Since, I've come across these videos that have supplied more details that justify the actions taken by the McMichaels. Since Greg McM was former law enforcement, and since Darren Wilson and Daniel Pantaleo were current LE at the time of their incidents, it's quite clear that being in LE makes no difference to apprehending and restraining a suspect. It could go south regardless. What matters is whether or not the death was justifiable or excusable in any way. As I said, and as was true in the other three cases I mentioned, the death of the suspect was totally the result of the suspect's actions, NOT those of the cop or neighborhood watch representative. Unless we have a clear case of abuse of power, the stats show that the vast majority of such deaths are the result of the suspect's actions and I would lean toward that as the likely reason a death took place despite my choosing to await full details.
No, there is no evidence that racism is supported by any evidence. It is simply the first choice of possibilities by race-hustlers in the media, the celebrity world and self-loathing, white-guilt trolls on blogs.
I guess I'd say that any time someone dies needlessly, that the situation could have been handled better.
In this case, I'm simply arguing that someone who is former LE should be in a better position to make good decisions. There is absolutely no reason why they wouldn't have followed and waited for LE to apprehend. If they truly were familiar with Arbery from previous encounters than there is really nothing that he has done that demanded immediate apprehension from non LE.
I suspect that we'll get more information as this goes along and thus a better understanding of the dynamics. I'm less concerned with that in the short term than I am with the racism narrative that is dominant right now.
"I guess I'd say that any time someone dies needlessly, that the situation could have been handled better."
This is true, but in this and the three cases I mentioned above, it could have and should have been handled better by the deceased, whose actions led to their own demise. Frankly, by your logic, every shooting of a suspect was needless and could have been handled better, but again, by the suspect himself. Rarely is the intention to kill the suspect, apprehension is the prime directive, as it were. No one dealing with a suspect is obliged to sacrifice himself for the sake of the suspect.
So in this case, I'm simply arguing that for the vast majority of shootings, law enforcement is not culpable for the deaths of suspects...the suspects are. Hindsight does not lend itself well to your position as it doesn't take into account the heat of the moment snap judgements LEO's must make in order to complete their task while preserving their own lives.
We may indeed get more info about this case before it's all said and done, but I suspect what is already known (and presented in the videos to which I've linked) is enough to acquit the McMichaels of wrongdoing and responsibility in the death of Arbery.
As to your main concern, yesterday I watched a completely absurd video made by this 34-year old white guy who, if I recall correctly, is some sort of ex-minister. He's recording himself on his cell phone jogging down the streets of his own neighborhood carrying a TV on his shoulder asking why the cops aren't chasing him or why his fellow citizens aren't calling the police. Somehow this idiot expects to be taken seriously as he thinks the reason is because he's white. I wondered if this idiot was related to, or possibly is, feo...it's just that stupid. And it fully illustrates your point. Idiots, race-hustlers and liars pretending every shooting of a black person by white people proves racism against the black race. Sad and pathetic.
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