Tyson Zahner
My last post about James Talarico's progressive Christian theology generated hundreds of conversations. The most interesting ones were with progressive Christians themselves… sincere, thoughtful people who love Jesus and genuinely believe they're following Him more faithfully than the traditional church has.
After engaging in several of these conversations, I noticed a pattern underneath every progressive argument… a shared worldview that produces them. And I think understanding that worldview is more important than debating any single issue, because until you see the operating system, you'll keep getting lost in the apps.
So this isn't an attack on progressive Christians. It's an honest attempt to describe what I think their worldview gets wrong.
I'll start with their core move…
Every conversation came back to some version of this: "Jesus summarized everything as love God and love your neighbor, and that overrides the harder moral teachings."
But I see two problems here.
One is simply a breakdown in what we mean by "love".
Progressive Christians tend to hear that word and translate it into merely compassion, empathy, and understanding… which then becomes affirmation, tolerance, and acceptance. By that definition, any moral boundary starts to feel unloving.
But that's not the biblical definition. Thomas Aquinas defined love (agape) not as mere emotion, but as a conscious decision to "will the good of the other" which sometimes means saying the hard thing, not the comfortable thing.
For example, no one would look at an 80-pound anorexic girl who believes she's overweight and say the loving thing is to affirm her. We all understand that sometimes the most loving thing you can do is refuse to affirm what someone genuinely believes about themselves because affirming it might destroy them.
Even Jesus in His most intimate, final moment demonstrated this while hanging next to two thieves in agony.
Jesus didn't remove their suffering or tell them their choices didn't matter. He offered truth. And one of the thieves accepted it, but only after saying, "we are receiving the due reward of our deeds" (Luke 23:41). Repentance came before redemption. That's what love looked like from Jesus when it mattered most.
The other problem is that this worldview ignores where Jesus said all the Law and the Prophets "hang" on these two commandments (Matthew 22:40). That word "hang" matters.
The law hangs on love the way a picture hangs on a nail. The nail holds up the picture, but it doesn't replace it. Remove the nail and the picture falls. But remove the picture and you just have a nail in the wall.
In other words, love and obedience aren't in tension. They're inseparable. Jesus Himself said: "If you love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15).
And then there's the question no one could answer…
Several people told me their faith is grounded in experiencing Jesus in their hearts… that a personal relationship with God supersedes strict adherence to a text.
I don't dismiss that the Holy Spirit works in believers' hearts.
But here's the question I kept asking, and no one could answer:
(well, they tried, but every answer relied on the same circular reasoning the question was designed to expose)
If what you feel in your heart can override what the text says, doesn’t that make Christianity infinitely malleable? In other words, how do you ever know when you're wrong?
For example, slaveholders in the antebellum South believed God ordained their way of life. They felt it in their hearts. They were wrong even though they were sincere.
The text was the corrective that eventually dismantled their position. Abolitionists didn't win by saying "I feel in my heart that slavery is wrong." They won by showing, from Scripture, that the trajectory of the biblical narrative demanded liberation. They appealed to the text, not away from it.
If feelings had been the final authority, slavery might never have been abolished… because the slaveholders' hearts told them they were right, too.
And here's why it's so hard to argue with progressive Christianity…
In my previous post I mentioned Jonathan Haidt (a social psychologist who is not religious, not conservative, and has described his own political leanings as liberal).
Haidt wrote The Righteous Mind about why good people are divided by politics. His research isn't about theology. But it explains why progressive Christianity is so effective and so persuasive to so many.
His core finding was this: conservatives draw from a broader moral palette including care, fairness, loyalty, authority, sanctity, and liberty. Progressives weight care and fairness far above the others.
In chapter 12, Haidt himself wrote: "When I speak to liberal audiences about the three 'binding' foundations — Loyalty, Authority, and Sanctity — I find that many in the audience don't just fail to resonate; they actively reject these concerns as immoral. Loyalty to a group shrinks the moral circle; it is the basis of racism and exclusion, they say. Authority is oppression. Sanctity is religious mumbo-jumbo whose only function is to suppress female sexuality and justify homophobia."
Progressive Christianity does the same thing theologically. It elevates the care and fairness dimensions of Jesus's teaching above everything else… then treats anyone who draws from the other moral foundations as a Pharisee.
The result sounds like pure love. But it's a narrowed moral vision that has quietly set aside half the palette and declared the remaining half to be the whole gospel.
In one of my conversations, a self-described progressive Christian told me plainly: "The vast majority of progressive Christians aren't against border enforcement, traditional marriage, or institutional order. The difference is we don't see those as moral issues."
That's not underweighting those foundations. That's removing them from the moral category entirely which is exactly the pattern Haidt describes.
Ultimately, I don't doubt the sincerity of the progressive Christians I spoke with this week. But sincerity isn't the same as accuracy.
A worldview that makes your own heart the final authority (above the text, above 2,000 years of consistent teaching) is a worldview that can never be corrected. Every hard teaching gets replaced by "but love." Every moral boundary gets reframed as legalism.
But that's not freedom.
Anyone who's loved an addict knows that removing every boundary doesn't set someone free. It just removes the only things that might have saved them. It's a prison with no walls… a place where you can wander anywhere, but no one can ever tell you you've gone the wrong way.
The deep end of Christianity isn't the version that tells you what you want to hear. It's the one that loves you enough to tell you what you need to hear.
8 comments:
I'd be very interested in a good faith conversation with this fellow. If I did, I'd point out that he's not got a good grasp on progressive Christians.
For instance, when he opines...
Progressive Christians tend to hear that word and translate it into merely compassion, empathy, and understanding… which then becomes affirmation, tolerance, and acceptance. By that definition, any moral boundary starts to feel unloving.
But that's not the biblical definition. Thomas Aquinas defined love (agape) not as mere emotion, but as a conscious decision to "will the good of the other" which sometimes means saying the hard thing, not the comfortable thing.
That certainly doesn't fit my crowd of Christians. As you know, many in my community are in the helping fields and of course that means being blunt and saying hard things to our clients, people we work with and with government agencies and funders. For instance. Of course, in any group, there will be some conservatives, liberals and others with a more timid notion of love. I'm just noting it's not normative in my circles or expanded network of connections.
For starters. I'd bet he could agree that starting out with a bad presumption is not conducive to good understanding.
Dan
To answer a couple of his questions (where he's overlooking a problem in his position, I'd say)...
if what you feel in your heart can override what the text says, doesn’t that make Christianity infinitely malleable?
I don't think so. Jesus said what he said, taught what he taught. It's not inscrutable, I'd tell him.
I would also add, as you likely know, that we ARE fallible humans without an ability to ask Jesus for clarification, but that is true for all readers, followers of Jesus, liberal, conservative and other.
But I'd remind him that Jesus DID offer the Golden Rule measure, and that's not wholly inscrutable. We may question, "is it most loving to welcome an addict into our home to help them heal or is it most loving to say they need to go to a rehab...?" And different circumstances and different people might suggest a different response with no one "right" answer. People of good faith may disagree.
On the other hand, is it loving to beat them half to death to abuse them into giving up their addiction... is it loving to kidnap their child and abuse them to force change? No, not loving.
But in the uncertain questions up to the extremes, we may not objectively know the most loving response. That is why many of us would say Jesus' way is ultimately a way of grace.
In other words, how do you ever know when you're wrong?
We won't always know objectively, perfectly the objectively right answer. Not conservatives, not liberals.
Thus, grace.
And I'd ask him if he thinks he always objectively know the right answer. He'd likely concede, No.
I'd then ask him is there an objectively right subset of moral answers that he DOES objectively know and if he said, Yes, I'd ask him for the list of behaviors he knows perfectly right and he likely wouldn't (maybe, but that hasn't been my experience with conservatives). But if he did, I'd ask him HOW he knows the objectively right answer and IF he answered, he'd probably say some version of, The Bible tells me so.
To which, I'd respond that I'm looking at the Bible and don't share his conclusion. I'd then ask, how do we know which person has the right of it and based on what... a rubric, a pope?
And THAT is what I'd love for him to answer.
Dan
I'm sure you would.
It's interesting that you start by projecting your perception of what your small crowd might think, onto all progressive christians. I suspect that your projection is problematic, but whatever. I suspect that you place too much weight on your personal experience as well.
Given that you feel confident making broad, sweeping, generalizations on progressive christians based on your personal experience, I guess that means that I can do the same and you'll accept my personal experience as equal in validity to yours. This just from my immediate circle of friends/acquaintances, without taking into account what those I read and am exposed to beyond my circle.
My personal circle consists of many more progressive christians (and in my world, even "conservative" Christians lean progressive), and based on what they tell me, I believe that he's closer to the mark than you might think.
I'm not sure that advising your clients to conform to the requirements of others is really demonstrating the self sacrificial love outlined by Jesus and Paul.
But, yes starting out with bad presumptions is unlikely to lead to good understanding. Especially in cases where one with bad presumptions is resistant to opening up to different positions.
In this case, you'd need to start by demonstrating that your hunch does, in fact, represent progressive christians outside of your small crowd.
Well, if you "don't think so" then the discussion is concluded. Contradicting the plain meaning of the text makes perfect sense, right?
Actually, Jesus technically didn't "offer the Golden Rule", in the sense I suspect you mean. Rather Jesus reminded those He was speaking to that the Golden Rule originated in Deuteronomy, and was grounded first in loving YHWH with one's whole being.
The problem comes with how you define love.
To use your example, is it "loving" to provide an addict with unlimited drugs or alcohol to prevent the pain of withdrawal? What shows more love to an addict, enabling his addiction or pushing then to go through the pain of withdrawal with the end goal of being sober and healthy?
Fortunately, you have the opportunity to actually ask him yourself rather than argue with yourself here. He's active on social media, I found him with a brief Google search.
My suggestion is that you find him yourself and tell him that you don't share his conclusion and that you think he's wrong. On what basis you'd think that I can't fathom, but go find him and bring your best arguments.
What I find interesting about your response is that it doesn’t actually respond to the case he made. He was referencing Talarico”s comments and the nationwide narrative around those comments.
The unanswered question that is left is, “Given the fact that you’re merely expressing an opinion based on yourself and your desire to speak for your “crowd” and that you are expressly denying that you are right, why should anyone care what you think? Let alone why should anyone feel compelled to respond?”.
Those are rhetorical questions. No answer needed.
"I don't think so. Jesus said what he said, taught what he taught. It's not inscrutable, I'd tell him."
This seems incredibly contradictory given Dan's constant demand that we prove how we know what we defend as true. But when Dan reads Scripture, apparently, HIS position is Jesus's teachings aren't impossible to understand. Dan pretends he counts himself among infallible humans and then says the teachings of Christ are not inscrutable (little Danny learned a new word today). To whom? To Dan's progressive circle of pretend Christians. "Fallibility" only comes up when analyzing the understanding of actual Christians and those who strive to be among them.
I don’t disagree with your conclusion. But I think it’s important to note that Dan and the author are on two different tracks. The author seems more interested in the fact that Talarico has been elevated to some sort of authority among progressive christians and in noting the pitfalls of this elevation. The author seems to be addressing the meta narrative, Dan seems focused on himself and pushing his personal narrative.
I look forward to seeing Dan actually asking these questions to the author, as he seems to be pretty accessible.
That the whole FCC aspect of the Talarico interview has been lied about is another thing entirely.
Craig:
I suspect that your projection is problematic, but whatever. I suspect that you place too much weight on your personal experience as well.
The dude Craig is citing:
After engaging in
several of these conversations,
I noticed a pattern underneath every progressive argument… a shared worldview that produces them.
So, I've been in what you would consider the progressive Christian world since I was at least thirty... more than half of my life. I know, of course, myself and my progressive family, but also the progressive (ish) church I attended when I was thirty and the wildly liberal church I've attended since then - this is hundreds of people, as time has passed and people have come and gone. Beyond that, I am associated with groups like Baptist Peacemakers, the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, the Fellowship of Reconciliation, PCUSA and PAM (Presbyterian musicians/worship planning group), a variety of nature and community-connected Christians and spiritual thinkers, the fans of Thomas Merton, Wendell Berry, Ken Sehested, Bret Hesla, Ched Myers and countless other progressive-minded thinkers, CLOUT and the DART network of progressive-minded churches, my family's connections with Volunteers of America (a national progressive social service agency), etc, etc... literally thousands of other progressive people and groups spread around the US and around the globe. I'm IN this world, daily, hourly. We meet, plan, support one another, organize, worship and otherwise are part of a common Beloved Community, again, to the tune of thousands of progressive-minded Christians.
Meanwhile, this guy has had "several conversations" according to him, as he cites "hundreds of comments" he's read.
And yet, YOU are concerned that MY sampling is too small... while this guy, you're willing to cite as perhaps making a good point about liberal Christians because he's had several conversations.
Which is it? Is "only" having hundreds of close connections and thousands of extended but significant connections to small a sample to speak authoritatively about what progressive Christians tend to believe... but "a few conversations" is sufficient to make you think this guy knows what he's talking about?
Do you see your rational flaw and the flaw in your grace?
Craig continued digging a hole:
Given that you feel confident making broad, sweeping, generalizations on progressive christians based on your personal experience, I guess that means that I can do the same and you'll accept my personal experience as equal in validity to yours
They are broad generalizations about hundreds/thousands of people and many groups deeply involved in the work of progressive Christian thinking. Is your experience as deep as that? Are they involving close personal relationships or casual acquaintances?
I'm glad to acknowledge your experiences ARE your experiences, coming from a place of open hostility towards Christian progressives. Is that a fair consideration? I have to seriously doubt that your little conservative experiences compare poorly to the daily work and research of people like me who are deeply connected to progressive Christians. Do you agree that this is probably fair?
I mean, again, because of my work in progressive Christian fields, because of my wife and my church's work in progressive Christian fields, because of my beloved community's work in progressive Christian fields... numbering hundreds of hours each week, IF you want to claim you have THAT kind of depth of connection to progressive Christianity... well, I'm going to have to call BS until you support it. But surely you will agree you don't have that kind of depth in terms of time, shared work, worship, life and conversations that I have.
Is that fair?
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