Alex White, every one of you idiots who argue against any sorts of controls on immigration should be begging his parents forgiveness right now. His blood is on your hands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5nCeMA03ac
https://twitter.com/AmboLukeambo/status/1760305218825163096
Clearly there is absolutely zero risk from military aged men, wearing tactical gear, some of them armed coming across the US border improperly. I'm sure they're just refugees looking for asylum.
19 comments:
So... are you suggesting we blame ALL immigrants for the actions of one? Does it work the other way... that we blame ALL conservatives for the actions of many?
This is not a supportable viewpoint if we're hoping to be rational adults.
Of course.
Dan
1. You frequently blame Art, Stan, Glenn, and me for the actions of "conservatives", why not?
2. No.
3. If, as we hear from the left ad nauseum, we can save one life by banning all guns then why would the same "logic" not apply to other areas as well?
4. I am suggesting that if we had control of our immigration system, that we could prevent some of these horrible crimes.
5. According to the best information I've seen so far, the Biden administration allowed the guy who murdered the young woman in GA to cross the border illegally in 2022, and he was set free after being arrested in NY because of their sanctuary laws. So it seems reasonable to conclude that this young woman would still be alive today if not for current immigration policy, along with others.
6. Because of the failure of the Biden administration to properly screen those immigrants who cross the border in violation of immigration laws, we are seeing an increase in these sorts of cases. I guess the deaths of innocent young women are the price we have to pay for open borders.
7. Look at Europe and the massive increases in crimes that are being committed by recent immigrants.
8. It seems unreasonable to expect people who get a pass on obeying some laws (in fact who get rewarded for failing to obey certain laws) to obey the rest of the laws in the US.
9. Yes, her blood is on the hands of Biden, and everyone who supports his current immigration policies.
10. It seems germane to note that the president of Nicaragua has used the Biden border policy as a way to lower his prison population and send those wonderful folks to the US. Because we know that if they get sent back, they'll be imprisoned, right? But to top it off, he's refusing to accept any of them back. If somehow the Biden administration ever got enough courage to deport them.
11. The fact that you see no problem with millions of military aged males, some wearing tactical gear (if you don't know what tactical gear is, it's the sort of gear y'all bitch about when cops wear/use it), across the border with absolutely zero screening, or accountability certainly tells me something about you.
1. You frequently blame Art, Stan, Glenn, and me for the actions of "conservatives", why not?
I literally do not. That you do not understand my words is not evidence that I've done something that I haven't.
What I HAVE said is that people should NOT be blamed for the sins of others in their group. (All of this is presuming the details in the story are correct). IF one immigrant/refugee turns out to be a bad guy and does bad things, well, THAT SHOULD BE EXPECTED. OF COURSE, some immigrants do bad things. Just like so many conservatives do bad things (Did you see white supremacists were marching the streets of a city in Kentucky today? Should we blame you for their actions and their attempt to oppress?).
Now, given that I and other progressives DO condemn any bad actions by any immigrants when they rarely happen, you have no real ammo there. The difference is that I/we ARE willing to condemn the bad actions of bad people who happen to be immigrant, or LGBTQ or progressive. We don't blame conservatives for the bad actions of the white supremacists or anti-semites or other bad actors on your side. BUT, we do condemn you all for not denouncing them or, even worse, defending them. (See January 6).
3. If, as we hear from the left ad nauseum, we can save one life by banning all guns then why would the same "logic" not apply to other areas as well?
By and large, "the left" is not saying we should ban all guns. We're just not. Period. Certainly not our politicians. There are some few who might say things like that to emphasize a point, but by and large, this is not something that liberals believe. I certainly don't. And you certainly don't hear that from "the left" in any serious opinion polls or from our elected leaders.
I've looked. I can find no opinion polls that suggests ANYTHING like Democrats/liberals want to ban all guns. You're just wrong.
Now, Democrats AND GOP AND Independents are all agreed on some reasonable limitations on gun access and use. But that's not limited to liberals. It's the American people who think that, across the spectrum.
https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2023/05/03/vanderbilt-poll-tennessee/
9. Yes, her blood is on the hands of Biden, and everyone who supports his current immigration policies.
Nonsense. This is an anti-reason, anti-common sense stupid claim.
IF you think that, THEN you would blame Trump for the idiots on January 6th, or the many white supremacists who MAGA has encouraged and given the strength to make them go out and kill, attack, and assault others.
But you're not saying that, are you.
Could it be partisan hypocrisy making you make such a ridiculously irrational/hyper-emotional claim that is clouding your reasoning/common sense?
Craig's strange claim:
It seems germane to note that the president of Nicaragua has used the Biden border policy as a way to lower his prison population and send those wonderful folks to the US. Because we know that if they get sent back, they'll be imprisoned, right?
Reality:
The Nicaraguan government released more than 200 political prisoners, many of whom arrived in the United States on Thursday, according to officials, following years of repression by the country’s President Daniel Ortega.
The authoritarian leader has
jailed dozens of opposition figures and activists, particularly in the lead up to the last elections in November of 2021.
So, some 200 POLITICAL PRISONERS have been released by a tyrant and SOME of those tried to escape oppression by coming to the US.
And you're OPPOSED to this... WHY?
The fact that you see no problem with millions of military aged males, some wearing tactical gear
Stop being a coward who listens to liars and cowards who spread cowardly false claims and nonsense slander.
The reality is that, FAR and away, by and large, immigrants come to the US to 1. find safety, 2. find security, 3. Not starve, 4. Have a better life.
These are all rational reasons to move some place. As long as there is strife and want in other nations, immigrants WILL seek safety here (and other safe havens). You don't have to like it, you don't have to care about these "least of these," but you have to accept it that it's a rational reality. It's going to happen. You would almost certainly do the same thing if your children were at risk (or shame on you, if not).
Now, in the mix of this vast majority of innocent people simply trying to survive/improve their lot, will there be SOME bad actors? Sure. JUST LIKE there are huge numbers of white supremacists allied with conservatism and Trump and white Christian nationalists. But we don't punish white conservatives who are NOT misbehaving for the crimes of their comrades. Nor should reasonable people punish innocent immigrants for simply seeking safety and a better life.
I mean, that IS what Jesus condemned literally in the parable of the sheep and the goats, where the goats were to be sent off for failing to ally with/welcome the least of these... it IS literally the crime of Sodom, for which they were allegedly wiped off the map. But modeling one's moral system on Sodom or the Goats... it's not a good look, son.
The fact that you see no problem with millions of military aged males,
The fact that you see "military age males" who are Latinos as a likely potential armed and dangerous threat certainly tells a lot of people something about you. Do you not see how you present yourself as a racist/coward when you say shit like that?
I KNOW "military aged" males from Latin America. They're good, hard-working people who simply want a better life. They pose no threat to cowardly white Americans who see "thugs" and "gangsters" behind every brown face.
No! No! NO, I do NOT have a problem with "military aged Latinos" coming to our nation seeking a better life. Why would I? Because of what MIGHT happen? Oooh, I'm shaking in my boots.
Hell, 200+ years ago, there were some "military aged" French Huguenots escaping death threats back home from religious zealots and I'm here today because our land would accept people seeking a better life.
And yes, throughout our history, primarily white people HAVE been fearful of the disease and threats brought by these immigrants seeking a simple life. And they've always been wrong and frequently xenophobic and cowardly and oppressive.
But shame on our history in that regards.
The difference between people like you and those like me is that I see a 20-30 year old and I see my son, my daughter, the children of my friends and church... we see actual immigrants we actually know and of course, we're not threatened by them. Why would we? Your type, on the other hand, see these brown 20-40 year old males as a potential threat.
The question, then, is why are conservatives so cowardly and fearful? I mean, I know, scientifically speaking, more conservative people tend to have brains that are more tied into their fear impulses. But you can be more than your biology.
I'm gonna sit at the welcome table
I'm gonna sit at that welcome table, one of these days, hallelujah
I'm gonna sit at the welcome table,
I'm gonna sit at the welcome table
one of these days.
Black, brown and white we're gonna sit together
Black brown and white, we'll sit together one of these days, hallelujah
black brown and white, we're gonna sit together
We're gonna sit at the welcome table,
We're gonna sit at the welcome table
one of these days.
Amen, amen and amen. I am so thankful to a welcoming God of grace and courage and basic decency. May we walk in those steps, free from fear or prejudice.
(Hint: You're almost certainly watching too much fake news fearmongerers rather than hanging out with immigrants and those who welcome them. Give up your fear, embrace grace.)
...across the border with absolutely zero screening, or accountability...
Of course, this is another stupidly false claim. WHO SAID there should be no screening or accountability? That is YOUR side who refuses to fund border support so that we CAN welcome and screen those refugees legally seeking a safe place to simply live. Our current prohibitive exclusionary conservative border policies ENCOURAGE secret crossings. Make the border a welcoming place and that won't happen. It's not safe to do it secretly, and immigrants know this... but hard and dangerous times make for hard choices.
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
But what does that French chick know, anyway?
What are you living in fear for? Because the 1 in a million chance that MAYBE some immigrant might/will act badly? Do you also live in fear of the more serious threat from white supremacists?
But no, you don't. You're white and conservative and male so you're probably safe from the white supremacists and Nazis and anti-semites marching our streets and storing up guns from their cowardly race war they're known to be trying to provoke.
Which side do you want to be on?
I'm sure data and reality and stuff won't alleviate your fears or help you see where actual threats are, but...
The study found that undocumented immigrants had substantially lower crime rates than native-born citizens and legal immigrants across a range of felony offenses. Relative to undocumented immigrants, U.S.-born citizens are over 2 times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes, 2.5 times more likely to be arrested for drug crimes, and over 4 times more likely to be arrested for property crimes.
https://www.ojp.gov/library/publications/comparing-crime-rates-between-undocumented-immigrants-legal-immigrants-and
Including those murdered in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 (9/11), the chance of a person perishing in a terrorist attack on U.S. soil committed by a foreigner over the 43‐year period studied here is 1 in 3.8 million per year.
[The chance of a person being killed by a foreign terrorist = 1 in 3.8 million]
...the chance of an American being murdered in a terrorist attack by a refugee is about 1 in 3.86 billion per year, while
the annual chance of being murdered in an attack committed by an illegal immigrant is zero.
...There were 192 foreign‐born terrorists
who planned, attempted, or carried out attacks on U.S. soil from 1975 through 2017.
By comparison, there were
788 native‐born terrorists
who planned, attempted, or carried out attacks on U.S. soil from 1975 through 2017.
Of those, 24 percent were right‐wingers,
22 percent were white supremacists,
16 percent were left‐wingers,
14 percent were Islamists,
11 percent were anti‐abortion...
https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorists-immigration-status-nationality-risk-analysis-1975-2017#introduction
So, again: The takeaway is that native born people pose a greater risk of harming others through crime than undocumented people. To the degree that undocumented immigrants get in criminal trouble, a large part of that is precisely our harsh closed door policies that FORCES them into underground and unsavory settings.
You and I agree, I think, that ultimately, the better solutions is for people in other nations to have safer, more secure, less poor nations to live in. But the reality is that poor people in desperate, unsafe, poverty conditions WILL oftentimes seek to improve their lot by moving some place less plagued by danger and poverty. This is rational. This is moral. OF COURSE, they will. Criminalizing what is inevitable and that is not inherently wrong is just a morally and rationally bad approach.
Seeking more openness, transparency and foreign policies and investments that help these poorer nations... this is a much more reasonable way of dealing with the problem. NEVER is choosing to punish the victims of poverty and violence a good answer.
Can you agree to that statement/position?
Dan doesn't care about the massive degree of negative impact illegal invasion is having on his fellow Americans...who aren't really his people at all if his obstinate attitude about allowing anyone to enter freely is any indication...which it is.
"IF one immigrant/refugee turns out to be a bad guy and does bad things, well, THAT SHOULD BE EXPECTED. OF COURSE, some immigrants do bad things."
Yeah, and if one immigrant does "bad things" multiple times and is continually released with not consequences until he kills an innocent young woman, well " THAT SHOULD BE EXPECTED. OF COURSE".
"By and large, "the left" is not saying we should ban all guns. We're just not. Period. Certainly not our politicians>
1. Then I guess your echo chamber isn't big enough.
2. I love it when you speak for "the left", it's cute.
3. As long as you say so.
4. Excellent job of ignoring the point I was making regarding the "If it saves one life" argument I regularly hear.
"IF you think that, THEN you would blame Trump for the idiots on January 6th, or the many white supremacists who MAGA has encouraged and given the strength to make them go out and kill, attack, and assault others."
1. Trump loudly and publicly told people on J6 not to engage in violence.
2. Trump did NOT take executive action that led to increasing numbers of people crossing the US border illegally.
3. Biden refuses to take executive action to do anything to stop the unregulated crossings of the US border.
4. DA's in multiple DFL run cities have refused to charge or deport immigrants who commit crimes, releasing them back onto the streets.
5. Apples and oranges.
No. It could be looking at the increase in the number of "immigrants" who commit crimes, are released multiple times then finally escalate to something so bad that they have to be detained. It's looking at the crime stats, especially rape, from Europe and looking at who commits the vast majority of those crimes. Not politics at all, unlike y'all, just looking at the data.
"And you're OPPOSED to this... WHY?"
Given your vague and unsourced claim, I have nothing to evaluate.
https://www.tpr.org/2024-01-04/how-nicaragua-is-weaponizing-immigration-to-the-u-s
NPR begs to differ. You love NPR as an unbiased source.
"Stop being a coward who listens to liars and cowards who spread cowardly false claims and nonsense slander."
Stop being an idiot who's so committed to a narrative that you reflexively dismiss any evidence that doesn't support your narrative.
"The reality is that, FAR and away, by and large, immigrants come to the US to 1. find safety, 2. find security, 3. Not starve, 4. Have a better life."
Well, if you say so. I do agree that when criminal immigrants come to the US they do so to have a better life of crime. Our prisons are likely better than most in third world countries, Soros DA's in DFL run cities are refusing to prosecute serious crimes. Many cities in CA are refusing to prosecute retail theft on a large scale, many DFL run cities and states have relaxed bail laws, the Biden administration is just letting people in willy nilly and maybe telling them to show up somewhere at some point in the future for a hearing. Of course they have no way to enforce compliance or anything, but who cares.
"These are all rational reasons to move some place. As long as there is strife and want in other nations, immigrants WILL seek safety here (and other safe havens). You don't have to like it, you don't have to care about these "least of these," but you have to accept it that it's a rational reality. It's going to happen. You would almost certainly do the same thing if your children were at risk (or shame on you, if not)."
Interesting that you choose to spout your narrative, not to respond to what I actually said. I guess a few million military aged males, from countries that are hostile to us, some of whom show up wearing tactical gear, is just the price we pay. Further, you've constructed a huge straw man here, but that's how you roll regularly.
"Now, in the mix of this vast majority of innocent people simply trying to survive/improve their lot, will there be SOME bad actors? Sure. JUST LIKE there are huge numbers of white supremacists allied with conservatism and Trump and white Christian nationalists. But we don't punish white conservatives who are NOT misbehaving for the crimes of their comrades. Nor should reasonable people punish innocent immigrants for simply seeking safety and a better life."
1. Great attitude. There are going to be some rapists, murderers and the like that get in because the Biden administration has opened the floodgates, but that's just a cost of doing business. It just sucks for their victims (especially the ones after they get arrested and released for crimes in the US) to be the price that gets paid for Dan to feel warm and fuzzy.
2. I can't recall that you've ever shown any hard data to back up your bullshit claims of this vast conspiracy you tout. Nor have you produced any evidence that this alleged vast number of bogymen commit actual crimes at a higher rate than illegal immigrants. Until you do, stop the bullshit.
3. I've never, ever, once said or even hinted that we should punish those who don't commit crime for the actions of those who do. One more massive straw man.
4. There are multiple measures before the US congress that will ban certain types of guns, which will absolutely punish the 90+% of gun owners who don't misuse their guns for the actions of the -10% who do. But then consistency was never your strong suit.
"The fact that you see "military age males" who are Latinos as a likely potential armed and dangerous threat certainly tells a lot of people something about you. Do you not see how you present yourself as a racist/coward when you say shit like that?"
Really, where did I say that? What exactly gives you the ability to make up these bullshit claims and attribute them to me?
"I KNOW "military aged" males from Latin America. They're good, hard-working people who simply want a better life. They pose no threat to cowardly white Americans who see "thugs" and "gangsters" behind every brown face."
1. By all means extrapolate from a small sample size, that's exactly how it's done.
2. By all means, go with a false, bullshit, straw man claim when you have nothing else.
"No! No! NO, I do NOT have a problem with "military aged Latinos" coming to our nation seeking a better life. Why would I? Because of what MIGHT happen? Oooh, I'm shaking in my boots."
Then you have no problem accepting responsibility for the crimes committed by military aged Latinos because you see no problem with them coming here unscreened.
"The difference between people like you and those like me is that I see a 20-30 year old and I see my son, my daughter, the children of my friends and church... we see actual immigrants we actually know and of course, we're not threatened by them. Why would we? Your type, on the other hand, see these brown 20-40 year old males as a potential threat."
Again with the straw man bullshit.
"The question, then, is why are conservatives so cowardly and fearful?"
Not at all. We'd (mostly) just prefer that people go through the legal process to immigrate to the US. That people not cross the border without going through the legal process, and simply be released into the population un vetted. We'd like immigration to be orderly and controlled, not virtually unregulated.
Really impressive how you ignore then large numbers of military aged males from multiple countries that are our enemies, who cross improperly and go un screened.
"Of course, this is another stupidly false claim. WHO SAID there should be no screening or accountability?"
Actions speak louder than words. Listen to the experts. The actual people on the ground who's job it should be to oversee an orderly, legal, process for immigration.
"That is YOUR side who refuses to fund border support so that we CAN welcome and screen those refugees legally seeking a safe place to simply live."
False. The most recent bill went way beyond this.
"Our current prohibitive exclusionary conservative border policies ENCOURAGE secret crossings. Make the border a welcoming place and that won't happen. It's not safe to do it secretly, and immigrants know this... but hard and dangerous times make for hard choices."
I get it. Who cares about the laws, anyway. It's too hard to do things the right/legal way so lets just encourage people to ignore the law. I suspect that you personally do not live by the ethic you endorse here.
"But what does that French chick know, anyway?"
She likely knows that the bit of poetry you quoted isn't law.
"What are you living in fear for? Because the 1 in a million chance that MAYBE some immigrant might/will act badly? Do you also live in fear of the more serious threat from white supremacists?"
See my response above to this straw man, and your incessant conspiracy theories.
"Which side do you want to be on?"
Clearly not on your side. But I'll admit that y'all have quite the industry going with immigrants. Stuff them in hotels, pay the hotel owners millions, let them know that they have a bonanza of free stuff in they go to the "right" places, and the revolving door "justice" system y'all have let Soros fund are a pretty sweet deal.
But as long as you're just arguing against straw men, and making up bullshit to attribute to your enemies, I'm good.
"I'm sure data and reality and stuff won't alleviate your fears or help you see where actual threats are, but..."
A three year old "study" based on "data" from 2012-2018 doesn't seem particularly relevant to our current situation. Maybe if you took the numbers and extrapolated based on the vast increase in illegal immigrants...
I'll also suspect that the pool of "immigrants" was limited to those who chose not to break the law in coming to the US in the first place, but I see no reason to waste much time on an outdated study.
"So, again: The takeaway is that native born people pose a greater risk of harming others through crime than undocumented people. To the degree that undocumented immigrants get in criminal trouble, a large part of that is precisely our harsh closed door policies that FORCES them into underground and unsavory settings."
The takeaway is that a 2017 study, with data that goes back to 1975 again doesn't seem relevant to our current situation unless some serious extrapolation is done. I do appreciate your diligence in choosing to ignore what's been happening in Europe over the past decade or so. Clearly European data is irrelevant to your narrative. Obviously the fine young immigrant who murdered Laken Riley was forced by the US government to endanger a child in NY, and to murder a young woman in GA. Which would mean that the Biden administration bears full responsibility for his actions (based on what you just said) because he immigrated illegally when Biden was in charge of the government that forced him to commit crimes.
I guess you'd have to choose to be on the side of personal responsibility, or the side of blaming other people, and be consistent. But that's unlikely.
"You and I agree, I think, that ultimately, the better solutions is for people in other nations to have safer, more secure, less poor nations to live in."
Obviously the very best possible way to achieve that is to ignore what's happening in those nations, invite everyone who lives there to come here, not bother to do much screening (if any), and just turn them loose with free stuff. I realize that we need to throw billions after billions into the pockets of US arms manufacturers to support a corrupt Ukrainian government.
"Can you agree to that statement/position?"
No. But I would counter that it's always good to punish those who engage in criminal behavior and violence instead of letting them walk without prosecution.
Well, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of military aged male Chinese crossing our border so that should scare anyone with common sense. And of course the same aged Muslims from around the world are also crossing the border with all the "Latinos." But, hey, why protect our nation from these dangerous people?
Glenn,
If you'd have replaced scare with concern, I'd be right with you. But you raise an excellent point that Straw Dan has chosen to ignore.
I'm not even saying that they shouldn't get in, I am saying that I think it's reasonable to do as much vetting as possible before deciding how to proceed. I think the point should be that until we know that they aren't dangerous, that they shouldn't get a free pass. This notion that accepting some percentage of criminals and terrorists is simply a byproduct of a healthy immigration system is absurd. Much like the notion that a certain amount of election fraud is to be expected, therefore we shouldn't do anything to make elections more secure.
"The reality is that, FAR and away, by and large, immigrants come to the US to 1. find safety, 2. find security, 3. Not starve, 4. Have a better life."
The reality is that, FAR and away, by and large, immigrants CLAIM to come to the US to do those things. It would be more reasonable to say the among them, a small percentage are truly either directly endangered in their home country or actually starving. Dan pretends they're the vast majority. So much video evidence suggests very little in support of Dan's preferred narrative.
Dan proves again why allowing modern progressives to have any input into discussions addressing immigration and border law is an incredibly stupid and suicidal move on the part of honest, honorable and truly intelligent people. Allowing that makes them less so.
This claim of Dan's is predicated on taking anything said by an immigrant at face value, and is likely based on old data as he offered earlier (if actual data exists). It's simply the leftist trope that no one should ever not get everything that they want, even if it means taking from others to provide it. The notion that the only (or even the best) option is to leave one's country when things get difficult, and go somewhere else just doesn't make sense.
It'd be interesting to see how many of these shithole countries that Dan whines about are governed by left wing governments. It'd be interesting to see how much money the US has already sunk into these countries and their left wing governments. Just like the migrants fleeing the growing shithole that is CA, and going to red states to turn them into CA, why would we expect any different on a national scale? Why would we not expect these immigrants (once the are granted the vote, or vote illegally) to vote for the same shit that drove them from their homelands in the first place?
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