Dan insists that Biden is "funding" Israel in it's "slaughter" of "innocent civilians", which raises some questions.
1. Define "funding".
2. Define "innocent civilians".
Now I've given him a space where his bitching is not off topic.
Given the fact that we have multiple pieces of data that make it clear that the "innocent civilians" of Gaza support Hamas and it's actions overwhelmingly. Hamas itself has made it clear that they consider the "innocent civilians" of Gaza to be expendable cannon fodder to be martyred as a means to destroy Israel. Can someone who actively supports atrocities against "innocent civilians" really be an "innocent civilian" themselves?
"Serious question for the people criticizing Biden’s authorization of weapon sales to Israel: It’s simply factual that the overwhelming majority of the sale was munitions for replenishing Israel’s Iron Dome system. It’s barely covered, but Israeli civilians live under constant rocket bombardment from terrorists. And not just from Hamas. Right now, Hezbollah is just firing explosives into people’s houses. Iron Dome intercepts these attacks, saving civilian lives. So let’s say you get your way. Biden declines to authorize these defensive weapons, and Hezbollah and Hamas can slaughter civilians it will. What the do you think happens next? Do you think this move would cost lives or move us closer to peace? What do you think Israel would do if their defenses were down? Is it possible Biden is using a deeper moral calculus than Twitter is telling you?"
So, if Biden stops "funding" Israel, how many innocent Israelis will be killed, wounded, maimed, raped, or kidnapped?
Is Israel buying military hardware from the US considered US "funding" of Israel?
As Israel is the nation in the Middle East which is the closest to a US style democracy/rep republic, and the nation with the highest degree of individual freedom and individual rights, wouldn't it make sense that the US provides aid to a country that is most similar to the US?
Historically the US has used both the threat of pulling aid or holding up arms sales, as a club to force Israel to take actions that were against it's best interests.
Given the fact that the US is one of the nations that has poured billions of dollars of funding into Gaza, which has been used to make the leaders of Hamas billionaires who live in Qatar, and to buy weapons and build infrastructure for terrorist attacks against "innocent civilians" shouldn't y'all be bitching that the US is funding terrorists who kill, rape, kidnap and torture "innocent civilians"?
A video which allows a resident of Gaza to speak for himself.
https://twitter.com/marinamedvin/status/1767705275492974841?s=51&t=cLq01Oy84YkmYPZ-URIMYw
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
If Hamas is inflating the casualty numbers, shouldn't that affect how we perceive them as a whole and how we decide to aid them, if at all?
39 comments:
I'll get to your links later, but off the top, it seems to me that if anyone wants to pretend they care about Gazastinian civilians or to posture as one who does ala Dan Trabue, then it's funding to Gaza which needs to be curtailed, as that money strengthens the very people responsible for all the suffering on both sides of the Isreali/Gaza border.
But, you know...the modern progressive is a very stupid person.
Re: "if hamas is inflating the casualty numbers..."
From Doctors without Borders, a respected, credible well-known non-Hamas source...
"More than 30,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza and over 70,000 wounded, and thousands are estimated to be buried under the wreckage. Three-quarters of the population—1.7 million people—have been forcibly displaced by this war, the majority crammed into the south. Water and food are scarce. Essential supplies like fuel and electricity are scant. And while the threat of disease and starvation grows, and the bombardment continues, lifesaving health care is increasingly inaccessible. The war has turned Gaza’s chronic humanitarian crisis into a catastrophe."
It's not like we're not watching the casualties live as they're happening or that we don't have other sources.
Are you suggesting that the death toll was only 25,000, it's okay, but if it truly is 30,000 (and growing), THEN you'll start caring about innocents killed?
Dan
1. Define "funding".
Providing money, resources, weaponry and military support used in a specific military operation.
This is literally, factually happening with US dollars being spent on efforts to kill people in Gaza.
2. Define "innocent civilians".
Non-military non-combatants. As is made clear not only by reason, but by our military laws regarding military engagement.
The children, mother's and medical staff in Gazan hospitals are innocents.
Do you disagree?
Dan
From Wikipedia...
"The Gaza Health Ministry stated on 9 February 2024 that 340 health workers had been killed since 7 October. Meinie Nicolai, a director of Doctors Without Borders, stated that Israel had killed two humanitarian aid workers, and that neither the U.S. or Israel had provided an explanation. Reem Abu Lebdeh, a trustee on the UK board of directors of Doctors Without Borders, was killed by an Israeli airstrike in Khan Younis.
Hospital staff
On Saturday 14 October, according to a statement by the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, an Israeli rocket had damaged the upper two floors of the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital's cancer treatment center, which contained the ultrasound and mammography wards, and injured four staff members. Another explosion occurred in a parking lot in the courtyard at 6:59 p.m. local time which lead to an estimated death toll of about 471."
Medical staff are innocent civilians.
Cancer patients are innocent civilians.
Humanitarian workers are innocent civilians.
The hundreds (thousands?( of children harmed in these attacks are innocent civilians.
That ten Hamas soldiers are killed at the same time dozens of civilians are harmed does not make the attack justified, according to the pertinent laws.
Dan
As to much of your post, you make all sorts of claims without providing any support. For instance, the thing about Hamas billionaires may be relying upon simple disinformation.
https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.343K3QJ
Perhaps you should support dubious claims before you make them?
And who knows, maybe there are Hamas billionaires. Maybe they don't invest that money in support of Palestinians. Maybe they got that money in unscrupulous ways.
We just don't know any of that from your post.
Dan
Art,
An obvious yet salient point. US aid to Israel benefits everyone who lives in Israel (Jew, Druse,Copt, Muslim, Maronite, Secularist, etc). Aid to Gaza is primarily used to fund terrorism and the destruction of Israel, except that which goes into the personal wealth of Hamas leaders. Of course, Israel purchasing things from the US is a different matter entirely.
But at least Biden unlocked another $10 billion of Iran's funds so Hezbollah and Hamas will be well provided for.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/hamas-billionaires-lifestyles-of-rich-terrorists
A simple Google search provides plenty of results, but this is one of them.
"Perhaps you should support dubious claims before you make them?"
I usually don't feel like I need to support things that have been widely reported. FYI, your "fact check" focuses solely on the issue of Forbes magazine putting those scum on their richest list/cover. Nowhere does it even address their actual wealth. It's always refreshing when you leap to defend those who've become wealthy by peddling hatred, exploiting their own people, and siphoning off aid money intended for their people.
"We just don't know any of that from your post."
And you apparently can't work Google.
Wikipedia is hardly an authoritative source.
Your Wikipedia "source" doesn't at all address the topic of the post.
No one is making the claim that Israel has killed zero "innocent civilians". Again, you bravely erect a straw man, and bravely dispatch the straw man you erected.
"That ten Hamas soldiers are killed at the same time dozens of civilians are harmed does not make the attack justified, according to the pertinent laws."
Actually, back in Oct/Nov when you were whining about the Geneva Conventions and international law, I copy pasted the pertinent sections of the Geneva Conventions that make it quite clear that prosecuting a war (especially one caused by the actions of an enemy sworn to eliminate you) does entail some degree of collateral damage, and is specific about what degree of collateral damage is acceptable under the Geneva Conventions. The reality is that Israel has and is taking precautions above and beyond the norm to minimize civilian casualties.
The reality is that Israel has and is taking precautions above and beyond the norm to minimize civilian casualties.
And so, Craig has decided and proclaimed for all the earth and of humanity. Thank you, Craig. Let's just tell those international lawyers and legal authorities and human rights groups to close down. We got a Craig on the job!
"Providing money, resources, weaponry and military support used in a specific military operation."
Please provide your source for this claim. As I note in the post, a large part of this US "funding" goes to pay for the Iron Dome system which is designed to stop the hundreds/thousands of rockets that Hezbollah and Hamas launch into Israel regularly. This system protects thousands of Israeli innocent civilians regularly from being killed, or maimed by these unguided rockets sent indiscriminately into civilian areas. But, since you've provide no source, I can't take you seriously. I guess the notion of "support" for your "dubious claims" is just one more thing you expect from me, but refuse to hold yourself to the same standard.
"This is literally, factually happening with US dollars being spent on efforts to kill people in Gaza."
"Perhaps you should support dubious claims before you make them?" FYI, your specific claim is that the US is "Providing money, resources, weaponry and military support used in a specific military operation.". That's the claim you have to prove. That the US is specifically funding the specific campaign against Hamas terrorists hiding behind the human shields of "innocent civilians".
"Non-military non-combatants. As is made clear not only by reason, but by our military laws regarding military engagement."
Are you aware that "military laws" as well as the Geneva Conventions require that "military combatants" are required to wear uniforms? Given that, and the fact that Hamas intentionally wears civilian clothes, and intentionally attacks from civilian buildings, with civilian human shields, it could be argued that the Hamas terrorist firing his Russian (Chines, Czech) built AK/RPG/PSM/SKS/Dragunov/RPK and the like provided by Iran, are ALL "Non-military non-combatants". Further, when the vast majority supports, and actively helps Hamas in their terrorist attacks, can they really not bear some of the responsibility for the results?
"The children, mother's and medical staff in Gazan hospitals are innocents."
Per the Geneva Conventions, this is not necessarily relevant.
"Do you disagree?"
In those specific cases it's possible, even likely. Yet we have no way to know for sure. Per the Geneva Conventions, the killing of "innocent civilians" is anticipated and allowed for.
Why, may I ask, are you so one sided. Have not the Russians/Soviets armed various Arab terrorist groups and countries for decades? Is not Iran specifically arming Hezbollah and Hamas right now? Why hold the US to a higher standard than other nations?
You cite doctors Without Borders with an out of context quote which has no link to verify it's accuracy or context. For example, did DWB actually, independently verify ever casualty they reported? If not what was their source, and what was the methodology of that source?
"Are you suggesting that the death toll was only 25,000, it's okay, but if it truly is 30,000 (and growing), THEN you'll start caring about innocents killed?"
No. I'm suggesting that when folx like you blindly accept casualty numbers from a single source, especially one that is part of Hamas, that it's hardly the kind of proof you demand from others.
Dan is keen on focusing on Gazastinian casualties so he can promote the narrative that Israel is responsible for war crimes. There would be no Gazastinian casualties resulting from Israeli defensive response were it not for the Gazastinians themselves. Their suffering is self-inflicted.
And as if Dan's slander was not enough, to provide a "report" that "Israel had killed two humanitarian aid workers" implies they were specifically targeted and that implication is intentional. Dan and his kind are liars of the kind they pretend is true of Trump. Far, far worse, in fact. Vile and despicable.
But hey, that's what grace embracing "Christians" do.
Per the Geneva Conventions.
"To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;"
So far sounds more like Hamas than the IDF.
"Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it."
Is Gaza/Hamas a signatory of the Geneva Conventions?
"States which are Parties to a conflict shall provide all civilian hospitals with certificates showing that they are civilian hospitals and that the buildings which they occupy are not used for any purpose which would deprive these hospitals of protection in accordance with Article 19."
"The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy."
According to the GC, using a hospital to hide military personnel or supplies removes it's protected status.
"Women shall be especially protected against any attack on their honour, in particular against rape, enforced prostitution, or any form of indecent assault.
Without prejudice to the provisions relating to their state of health, age and sex, all protected persons shall be treated with the same consideration by the Party to the conflict in whose power they are, without any adverse distinction based, in particular, on race, religion or political opinion.
However, the Parties to the conflict may take such measures of control and security in regard to protected persons as may be necessary as a result of the war."
Again, sounds more like Hamas, than the IDF.
"The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."
"The High Contracting Parties specifically agree that each of them is prohibited from taking any measure of such a character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishment, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment of a protected person but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents."
Again, Hamas.
"The taking of hostages is prohibited."
"Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it."
"Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention."
"Civilian deaths aren’t necessarily war crimes, but civilians must not be targeted deliberately or indiscriminately, and military operations must be proportionate."
"The Geneva Conventions forbid the use of medical facilities to hide military units and the use of civilians as human shields — both of which Israel claims Hamas does. In such cases, it may be legal to attack areas where civilians are present."
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-crimes-explainer-cd019114fac21c919000ef80276980d9
It is indisputable that Hamas has violated multiple sections of the GC, yet you and others like you say virtually nothing about this. Instead you focus on Israel, even though the GC acknowledges that civilian casualties are inevitable, and the hospitals used as military facilities are not protected.
This is what happens when one argues from a position of ignorance. Ignorance of both the context of this latest chapter of a conflict that dates to 1948, and ignorance of the Geneva Conventions. Simply throwing in as an aside "Well of course Hamas should abide by the GC as well." while making unsubstantiated claims against the IDF is obscene.
The fact that you make unsupported "dubious claims", while bitching about me doing that which you regularly do, and the fact that you hold the IDF to a higher standard than Hamas (or at least bitch about the IDF waaaaayyyyyy more than about Hamas), are just more signs that you really do live in a world where you and yours aren't held to the same standards you apply to others.
"And so, Craig has decided and proclaimed for all the earth and of humanity. Thank you, Craig. Let's just tell those international lawyers and legal authorities and human rights groups to close down. We got a Craig on the job!"
Again, with the double standard.
Craig points out the glaringly obvious point and Dan plays this bullshit game, while Dan makes all sorts of unsupported claims of war crimes against the IDF.
FYI, The IDF has an air force that is quite good. They have all sorts of airplanes flown by highly skilled pilots. Some of these planes carry things called bombs, and missiles. Those weapons along with a weapon called the Lora, are quite capable of destroying every thing and everyone in Gaza in a matter of days. Israel has instead chosen to put "boots on the ground" and to root out the Hamas cowards hiding behind human shields. Israel is in the process of delaying it's assault on Rafah, where many Hamas terrorists are hiding and potentially where the hostages are, in order to provide for the civilians that will be affected.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/urgent-statement-from-chief-executives-of-humanitarian-agencies-and-human-rights-organizations-on-rafah-gaza/
Even Amnesty International acknowledged that the IDF was getting people out of Rafah before they attacked. They don't like it, but they acknowledge that it is what is happening.
It's immeasurably more dangerous to engage in the type of urban warfare that Israel has chosen, and markedly less dangerous to simply reduce Gaza to ruin with air attacks.
But go ahead and enjoy your little fantasy world.
Art,
Dan seems completely unaware of the FAFO factor. They FA'ed and they're FingO. The reality is that Hamas is responsible for every single casualty in this part of the conflict. Had they simply left things as they were on 10/6, none of this would have happened. Had they surrendered and returned the hostages this would be over. Had they accepted the cease fire plans they've rejected, it'd be paused.
The fact that absolutely ZERO of their fellow Muslim/Arab "allies" have come to their aid means that even their co coreligionists acknowledge that Hamas is at fault. The fact that Egypt's border with Hamas is one that an order of magnitude beyond the wishes of those of us in the US for our borders, tells us what Egypt thinks of Hamas and Gaza. Gaza belonged to Egypt, and Egypt didn't/doesn't want it back.
The moral of the story is that when you attack someone and engage in all sorts of evil atrocities, that you should expect some pain in return.
Word!
Word to yo' mutha.
LOL!
So, while it's difficult to say specifics, there are probably at least 30,000 Palestinian deaths so far (+ casualties, of course).
Then, according to IDF, they estimate 12,000 Hamas combatants killed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
You defend the killing and maiming of tens of thousands of Palestinians because the, you theorize, the legitimate targets of Hamas combatants, even if for every combatant killed, Israel is killing TWO innocent civilians (largely women and children).
In your opinion, that's a slaughter you're willing to defend as "legitimate" and even the fault of Hamas, right?
Presumably, though, you would be horrified if US police routinely killed TWO innocent women and children for every murderer they catch, is that right? Or would you blame the criminals for those innocent killings, not the police?
Dan
"So, while it's difficult to say specifics, there are probably at least 30,000 Palestinian deaths so far (+ casualties, of course)."
You say this like there's some objective proof, yet offer absolutely zero support for your "dubious claim". Again with the bitching about other people not supporting claims, when you regularly do what you bitch about.
"Then, according to IDF, they estimate 12,000 Hamas combatants killed."
So, that would leave @18,000 alleged "civilian" casualties. Roughly half of the 35,000 being reported and repeated with no verification.
"You defend the killing and maiming of tens of thousands of Palestinians because the, you theorize, the legitimate targets of Hamas combatants, even if for every combatant killed, Israel is killing TWO innocent civilians (largely women and children)."
Well, the straw man comes right out in front.
1. I don't "defend" the killing of "innocent civilians". I recognize that it is an unfortunate and regrettable cost of war. Which does NOT violate the GC.
2. I do acknowledge that Hamas is totally responsible for any "civilian" casualties in Gaza.
3. I do acknowledge that Hamas could stop "civilian" casualties literally instantly, they choose not to.
"In your opinion, that's a slaughter you're willing to defend as "legitimate" and even the fault of Hamas, right?"
See above. See the GC and it's treatment of "civilian" casualties during wartime. Are you really trying to imply that Hamas is not responsible for the consequences of their actions? That Hamas did not anticipate this exact Israeli response, and in fact wanted this sort of response? That Hamas hasn't admitted that it's strategy is to put "civilians", women, children, and the elderly directly in harms way so as to influence people like your to look favorably on them?
"Presumably, though, you would be horrified if US police routinely killed TWO innocent women and children for every murderer they catch, is that right? Or would you blame the criminals for those innocent killings, not the police?"
Apples and oranges. Not nearly enough information to draw a conclusion.
Better example. If a murder was locked in a room with two hostages (women/children) and was using them to shield himself/herself from being arrested, and the hostages were accidentally killed as the police breached the room, I would correctly place the blame on the hostage taker.
It's amusing to watch you ignore the lengthy quotes from the GC that demonstrate that your hunches about international law are incorrect, and that Hamas has egregiously violated this international law you are obsessed with holding the IDF accountable to. While hiding behind straw men, and absurd apples/oranges hypothetical.
It's equally amusing to watch you try to apply this one sided "justice" to that IDF, while ignoring or brushing off the fact that yo are defending/excusing raping, murdering, kidnapping, terrorists, who've been trying to kill "innocent civilians" for years in Israel and who's entire strategy is to use "innocent civilians" as human shields to protect their cowardly asses.
Islam promises all sorts of wonderful blessings to those who choose martyrdom. I suspect that it doesn't promise quite as much blessing to those who force others to martyrdom because they are to cowardly to martyr themselves.
Because it's just a theory that Hamas combatants (who are specifically not protected by the GC) are legitimate targets. Because terrorists who kill, maim, torture, rape, kidnap, and fire unguided rockets at "innocent civilians" couldn't possibly be legitimate targets. Because Israel stopping an existential threat to it's citizens isn't a legitimate goal.
I also have to note a few things vis-a-is responsibility for "civilian" casualties.
1. How many of those "civilian" casualties have been caused directly by Hamas? Firing indiscriminately, explosives, etc?
2. How many "civilian" casualties would their be in Gaza had nothing happened on 10/7?
3. There have been several cease fire proposals that Hamas has not accepted, is Hamas not accountable for "civilian" casualties that happened because they wouldn't accept a cease fire?
4. There are reports that Hamas just gunned down multiple "civilians" waiting for an aid convoy (Driving down a route specifically for aid convoys, protected and kept open by the IDF, which came from Israel), if these prove True, is not Hamas responsible for those "civilian" casualties?
5. Early in the war, Hamas claimed hundreds of casualties from the IDF bombing a hospital. We later found out that the bomb was actually a Hamas fired rocket that landed in the hospital parking lot and actually resulted in very few casualties. Is not Hamas responsible for that, and given Hamas documented overestimation/lying about casualty numbers isn't it reasonable to take their numbers with a degree of skepticism?
As to point #4, I don't know if we're speaking of different incidents, but I've heard also of Hamas gunning down Gazastinians seeking to leave an area of their control to avoid being added to the casualty list.
So far Hamas has gunned down the leaders of a prominent family/clan for the heinous crime of talking to Israel. Then Hamas gunned down their subjects who were waiting for a supply delivery. They tried to blame the IDF, but there is actually video of the events.
Three things.
1. We have ample evidence of Hamas shooting/killing/hijacking aid shipments to keep them away from Gazans.
2. The IDF is pretty smart about a lot of things. I find it hard to believe that they haven't/won't have drone coverage over all of the aid shipments and distribution points to document these sorts of actions on the part of Hamas.
3. It could be argued that this wasn't Hamas, just some random Gazans. If this is the case, then isn't it Hamas' job to prevent these sorts of things?
https://twitter.com/avivaklompas/status/1768613576397172811?s=51&t=cLq01Oy84YkmYPZ-URIMYw
Laws of War - A Primer
🟠Genocide: The deliberate destruction of a group, with specific intent to kill regardless of combatant status. The Holocaust, which killed 36% of all Jews (6 million) was recognized as such. Also Cambodia under Pol Pot, where 25% of the population was killed (2-3 million).
🟠Famine: A long-term, severe shortage of food According to the IPC system, a 30%+ malnutrition rate, and a 2+ per 10,000 mortality rate. There have been no documented cases of starvation in Gaza, with the exception of released hostages, who were nearly starved to death while being held by Hamas.
🟠Proportionality: For each strike, the commander must carefully balance military need vs anticipated collateral damage. Intent is important.
🟠Self-Defense: A basic inherent right and responsibility of nations, enshrined in Article 51 of the UN Charter.
🟠Principle of Distinction: All parties must distinguish between combatants and civilians. For example, when most Hamas fighters dress as civilians, they break the Geneva Convention (GC) and Intl Humanitarian Law (IHL) by disregarding this principle.
🟠Combatant-to-Civilian Casualty Ratio: In urban warfare, the avg ratio is 1:9 (9 civilians killed for each combatant killed). In Gaza, the ratio is about 1:1, the lowest ever seen for urban warfare.
🟠PsyOps: Psychological operations spread disinformation, attempting to misdirect and gain support. For example, Hamas declares it's primary mission is genocide and ethnic cleansing, then inverts reality, gaslighting and portraying its' victims as perpetrators. Propaganda to incite violence or hatred is prohibited under ICCPR.
🟠Antisemitism: One of the fundamental principles of GC and IHL is non-discrimination. Antisemitism itself breaks international law. When Hamas and other jihadists incite hate against Jews and other minorities, they break international law. When media and academics consistently and repeatedly demonize Israel, rather than report objectively, they break international law.
TLDR: Terms related to international humanitarian law and laws of armed conflict have specific meanings codified in law. It's vital to understand these when we discuss conflicts.
Special thanks to the brilliant international humanitarian law authority, Natasha Hausdorff.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1768510256647373077
Just some more information for Dan to help him with his flawed guesses about international law and the Geneva Conventions.
"There are 1.8 billion Muslims - many living in dozens of Muslim majority states.
There are 15 million Jews - and they form a majority in just 1 state.
The biggest killer of Muslims, Christians and Jews today?
Muslim extremists.
But yes, let's pretend Israel is the problem."
I came up with something similar a while ago, but it bears repeating.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1768266257990623574
Muslim scholar speaks out against peace treaties with Israel. I say when Muslims tell you who they are, believe them.
"Not long ago, in a place that seems far away, the worst crime you could commit was to rape a human being.
It was considered so heinous that rapists (especially child molestators) housed in correctional institutions were frequently murdered by hardened felons and killers. These perpetrators were housed in their own “special” prisons to avoid death."
"We have reached a point in our society where “evolved” people are justifying and marching for rapists.
Not your run-of-the-mill sexual assaulter and pervert,
But,”Resistance” fighters who use it repeatedly and rape, women, children, and men. They mutilate and “play” with body parts.
Even Hannibal Lector couldn’t conjure up this nightmare.
I think I’m calling this horror. "
https://twitter.com/HenshiG/status/174225876810297780
"Not only did #Hamas rape women, men, and children, but there is a graphic go pro video which is too macabre, to post, showing a gleeful terrorist applying duct tape over a pregnant woman’s mouth, while another demon cuts the baby from her womb when they are both alive, and then slaughters them both.
They laugh and yell “Allahu Achbar”
This is a fraction of what happened on that terrible day.
And they will do it over and over; with the world’s help. They have stated it repeatedly.
The only country that will eliminate these devils is Israel.
The world needs to pray that israel destroys them all.
The irony is that the Iranian people who have lived with this terror since 1979 are backing #Israel.
The West continues to fund regimes that want freedoms obliterated."
A long time ago, Dan used to use "raping puppies" and "raping children" as his examples of the very worst things people could do. Now we see what Hamas did on10/7, what they video taped, what they celebrated, what they did in the name of Allah.
We also see Dan shilling for the people who did those horrible, evil things. Sane humans should be able to agree than anyone evil enough to do what was done on 10/7, and to do it in the name of a god who allegedly is a god of peace, should be eradicated. But not Dan, he wants to blame the Jews for being willing to do what the western world won't.
I apologize. I have repeatedly referred to Hamas as rapists for their actions of 10/7 and for their treatment of their hostages. I misspoke, they are not rapists. They are undocumented sex partners, or undocumented lovers if you prefer. I hope that they will accept my deepest apologies and not issue a fatwa against me. It would be a shame to be killed by adherents of the "religion of peace" for simply making a small mistake.
We also see Dan shilling for the people who did those horrible, evil things.
We, of course, do NOT see that because it has not happened. But we DO also see Craig continue to shilling stupidly false claims over and over and over while he continues to defend Israel in their slaughter of thousands and thousands of women and children.
Read, understand:
HAMAS engaged in horrible war crime evils. THEY should be held accountable, punished, THOSE WHO ENGAGED in those crimes must pay. Period. Full stop. What they did/continue to do is EVIL and wrong. Hiding behind civilians IS WRONG. NO ONE IS DEFENDING HAMAS VILLAINS, and certainly I'm not. It's a damned lie by a coward and an idiot.
AND ALSO:
ISRAEL is engaging in horrible actions when they kill thousands of innocents while trying to also kill the villains.
BOTH things can be true at the same time. It's the deliberate killing of innocents that is wrong, that should be opposed.
Morally consistent adults are opposed to it consistently.
I'm morally consistent. You make stupidly false claims and, at the same time, remain morally inconsistent.
And although I may not have mentioned Hamas being wrong "enough" for your personal preference, I don't have to because I'm consistent.
Is it wrong to harm innocents?
DAN: Yes, always.
So, is it wrong for Hamas to harm innocents?
DAN: ??? WTF? YES, ALWAYS. What part of ALWAYS are you failing to understand.
The other reason why I and people like me are focused on Israel's actions is because WE have some say in Israel's misdeeds, because WE are providing money, weapons and support for them. WE can effect change by withholding that funding and applying pressure to Israel that, at some level, need to listen to us. We have leverage with them.
We don't have leverage with Hamas. We're not funding Hamas.
So, I take on issues where there is hope for change. Just complaining about Hamas being bad guys is just pissing in the wind. They don't care what you or I think.
Another reason I/we focus on Israel is because this history and these peoples have a long history of harming each other. Continuing harming the innocent in either group ONLY grows the problem. The ONLY hope for Israel to have peace is to lead with peace. Killing innocent Palestinian people (and otherwise disrespecting them, like denying their existence and using "scare quotes" around Palestinians) only flames the fires of violence.
Listen to rational Jewish folk, to rational Palestinians who are promoting methods for finding peace. Stop listening to warmongerers who believe in magic mass murders of innocents as if that's a solution.
It's not and never will be.
Dan,
I parse your bullshit in a minute. I simply want to note that your comment makes my point entirely. I've provided ample evidence that Israel is not violating the Geneva convention, while Hamas is, yet you've chose to hide from that and keep making these unsupported accusations that you cannot and haven't even tried to prove. The fact that you throw in your mealy mouthed condemnations of Hamas, then accuse Israel of worse without a shred of proof is where your problem lies. Of course your, "The other guys do it." bullshit excuse is getting old and worn out.
"I've provided ample evidence that Israel is not violating the Geneva convention, while Hamas is..."
There's no dispute that Hamas has committed crimes. I've seen legal experts on both sides as to whether Israel's actions rise to the level of crimes. Primarily, what I've seen is conservative legal opinion has said no and human rights experts said it's likely.
I don't care what you happen to think, since you're not a legal expert. I don't care what YOU think of how to understand human rights violations as you're not a human rights expert.
Dan
"But we DO also see Craig continue to shilling stupidly false claims over and over and over while he continues to defend Israel in their slaughter of thousands and thousands of women and children."
I'll simply note that you haven't named one single "false claim", nor provided any objective proof of any of these "alleged" "false claim"s. That alone renders anything you say irrelevent.
"BOTH things can be true at the same time. It's the deliberate killing of innocents that is wrong, that should be opposed."
Unless you can prove this claim, I will have to consider it false. This false equivalency bullshit you do is simply one more straw man.
"I'm morally consistent. You make stupidly false claims and, at the same time, remain morally inconsistent."
I was unaware that making false claims (as you do here) was consistent with your subjective moral code. This also ignores the fact that everything Israel has done is withing the bounds of the Geneva convention.
"And although I may not have mentioned Hamas being wrong "enough" for your personal preference, I don't have to because I'm consistent."
It's more that you almost always minimize or fail to mention the actions of the "oppressed" or those you sympathize with, while you obsess over whoever you've subjectively decided is the bad guy.
"
The other reason why I and people like me are focused on Israel's actions is because WE have some say in Israel's misdeeds, because WE are providing money, weapons and support for them. WE can effect change by withholding that funding and applying pressure to Israel that, at some level, need to listen to us. We have leverage with them.
We don't have leverage with Hamas. We're not funding Hamas."
This is interesting for three reasons.
1. The US has repeatedly engaged in this sort of interference in the internal affairs of Israel since the '50S. It's strange that you never seem to favor this sort of meddling in the affairs of other countries we give money to. Despite the US and Europe trying to interfere in Israel's internal policies, somehow Israel has manged to survive.
2. As I noted earlier, the vast majority of US military support for Israel is for it's Iron Dome air defense system. Without this system, hundreds if not thousands of "innocent" Israeli civilians would be killed or injured each year. Are you willing to accept responsibility for those casualties?
3. The US and Europe have given billions of dollars directly to Hamas, and give billions of dollars to various Muslim countries that support Hamas. Why are you not calling for a stop to those gifts as well? Why are you not bitching about the 10 billion Biden just gave to Iran? Why aren't you bitching about the aid to Hamas, which is a terrorist group? Why are you ignoring the aid that flows almost entirely through Israel for Gaza? Why not bitch about Egypt and their refusal to allow people in Gaza to claim asylum in Egypt?
You just don't get it. You think that as long as you make some vague, generalized, namby pamby, excuse that you can focus on your villain, while ignoring anyone else that is involved.
"So, I take on issues where there is hope for change. Just complaining about Hamas being bad guys is just pissing in the wind. They don't care what you or I think."
Well, since you haven't provided one suggestion for dealing with Hamas and the evil they perpetrate, and you bitch about Israel stepping up to punish them, what is the world to do? Their fellow Muslim countries haven't controlled Hamas, instead they bankroll them, Hamas isn't held to account for stealing the billions in aid they get, or for stealing the aid that is coming in now. So, give them the cease fire on their terms, reward them for their evil, and go back to ignoring them, is that your solution?
Have you seen the outrageous demands Hamas is making before it'll agree to a cease fire and to release SOME of their hostages? In what moral code is it just or right to reward those who do evil?
"Another reason I/we..."
Stop with the "we" bullshit. Stop acting like you speak for anyone but yourself. Isn't arguing from numbers a logical fallacy?
"... focus on Israel is because this history and these peoples have a long history of harming each other. Continuing harming the innocent in either group ONLY grows the problem. The ONLY hope for Israel to have peace is to lead with peace. Killing innocent Palestinian people (and otherwise disrespecting them, like denying their existence and using "scare quotes" around Palestinians) only flames the fires of violence."
This isn't even worth responding to. It shows that you've chosen to ignore the history of this "conflict" since 1948, and to ignore the fact that Hamas is quite clear that they want Israel eradicated. As I've said before, I use quotes around "palestinians" because the term is a made up term, which doesn't denote a racial, ethnic, or national group or people. There has never in human history been a nation or people group called Palestine/Palestinians. Why would I not indicate that historical reality?
I'd suggest that engaging in unprovoked invasions of Israel, decades of killing Israeli "innocent civilians", suicide bombs, car bombs, and tens of thousands of unguided rockets might play a role in the history as well. I applaud your weak attempt to make me liable for literally "killing" "palestians" because"
"Listen to rational Jewish folk"
"rational" means the ones who agree with Dan.
"... to rational Palestinians who are promoting methods for finding peace. Stop listening to warmongerers who believe in magic mass murders of innocents as if that's a solution."
This statement is so far from the actual reality of what Hamas, Hezbollah, and the majority of the people in Gaza believe as to be a denial of reality. I've provided the Hamas charter, the quotes, the videos, and plenty of evidence, that you choose to ignore it in favor of this fantasy that Israel is totally to blame is your problem, not mine. I've provide more than enough to refute this fantasy, while you've provide nothing to prove this fantasy. I've provided plenty of evidence to demonstrate the bullshit of your claims about war crimes, you've provided nothing. If you choose to live in a fantasy world, that's fine. I'm not going to force you to believe in the reality of actual history.
"It's not and never will be."
Then you're complaining about the wrong side, and ignoring history. The Arabs (PA, Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, and the like have rejected multiple peace plans that result in a two state solution, Israel has agreed to accept all of them
Seriously, pay attention to history and reality.
"There's no dispute that Hamas has committed crimes. I've seen legal experts on both sides as to whether Israel's actions rise to the level of crimes. Primarily, what I've seen is conservative legal opinion has said no and human rights experts said it's likely.
I don't care what you happen to think, since you're not a legal expert. I don't care what YOU think of how to understand human rights violations as you're not a human rights expert."
1. Neither are you, yet you keep insisting that Israel has committed war crimes without one shred of proof of anything specific.
2. I can read, the text of the GC and various other "war crimes" documents.
3. The fact that you appeal to some unnamed "experts" as if that is all you need is pathetic and childish.
4. I can only assume you'll be providing a detailed and specific refutation of the video from an expert that I linked to.
Yet somehow you expect me to care about your ignorant, uninformed, unsupported, false, bullshit claims even though you are clearly nowhere near an "expert".
But the hiding behind that mystery "experts", especially when we've seen so many "experts" you believe proven wrong recently doesn't seem like a good strategy.
"I was asking about an actual journalistic or governmental source. Not bubblebathgirl on Twitter."
Ahhhhhhhh, the old ridicule people because of where they happen to share their expertise. I especially respect that fact that you don't even have the courage to provide a link to what you specifically object to, or to refute the claims that were made. But your blind faith in the MSm is touching in a naive sort of way.
You can keep this bullshit up as long as you want. I understand that it's only a tactic designed to draw attention away from the fact that you have no proof of your claims, almost total ignorance of the history since 1948, and a predisposition to favor those you determine to be the good guys.
1.8 Billion Muslims, billions of whom live in close proximity to Israel, as opposed to 9.1 million Israeli's, not all of whom are Jewish.
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